Need help with timing once more...

[jbswear]

...I believe that if I get this last issue resolved, the 380 will be running for good.

Background:

I'm not using the timing marks on the plate to set the timing. I'm using a dial indicator to set the spark at 2.4mm BTDC. When doing this, the timing marks is many degrees of, something like 15-20.

The left and center cylinders fire perfectly. It'll run if I set the idle a bit high. The right cylinder isn't firing at all.

I pulled the plug out to test for sparking. There's no spark at all. With the engine running and the right cylinder's plug pulled, atomized gas sprays out of the plug hole, so I know it's getting fuel. Holding the plug against the head shows no sparking at all.

Now then...onto the breaker plate. I set the right breaker to .014" at its widest. Here's the kicker--I cannot get the right breaker to close at all. Something tells me this is because of how I have the breaker plate turned, so that the heel on the breaker isn't touching the cam at all.

I'm worried about turning the breaker plate because then the other breakers won't be opening at 2.4mm.

Can you guys offer me any advice?

[Suzsmokeyallan]

You need to set the "fixed" breaker points first, this is the one set thats screwed directly to the round plate itself, so centre the three holes in the plate on the engine case and then adjust this set of points with its two set screws so they just open at the timing mark. You may have to shift the round plate slightly on the crankcase just a tad off of the centre slotted holes to fine tune the adjustment. After you have done this procedure once you DO NOT move the round plate for the other cylinders.
If you place this set of points onto the cams high spot after setting them, you should then get about a 0.35mm clearance.
The other two points sit on an adjuster plate ON the large round plate so they can shift back and forth to get their correct timing without moving the large plate.
If you move the large plate again, you have just thrown off all your previous work again.
However, if you end up with any of the screws really off from the centres of the slotted holes something is wrong.

[jbswear]

You need to set the "fixed" breaker points first, this is the one set thats screwed directly to the round plate itself, so centre the three holes in the plate on the engine case and then adjust this set of points with its two set screws so they just open at the timing mark. You may have to shift the round plate slightly on the crankcase just a tad off of the centre slotted holes to fine tune the adjustment. After you have done this procedure once you DO NOT move the round plate for the other cylinders.
If you place this set of points onto the cams high spot after setting them, you should then get about a 0.35mm clearance.
The other two points sit on an adjuster plate ON the large round plate so they can shift back and forth to get their correct timing without moving the large plate.
If you move the large plate again, you have just thrown off all your previous work again.
However, if you end up with any of the screws really off from the centres of the slotted holes something is wrong.

Yeah, my problem is that I have set the plate like that or so I thought...

I'll try to play with it this week. Maybe I have it set incorrectly.

[jbswear]

I just took a gander at the timing plate--it's rotated all the way to one side of the slots. I'll try setting it closer to the center.

I appreciate the help. Always!

[Suzsmokeyallan]

Why not try timing it statically first to see what happens before you use the dial gauge. If the plate is all to one side in any of the slotted screw holes something is not quite correct.

[jbswear]

Why not try timing it statically first to see what happens before you use the dial gauge. If the plate is all to one side in any of the slotted screw holes something is not quite correct.

Yeah, some time this week I'm just gonna start over from scratch and see if it clears up.

[tz375]

The points not closing is a sign that that set is set all wrong. I hate points, and I throw them away but let's try this for size. There are two things that have to be set for each cylinder - the gap and the timing at which they crack open.

Set the points plate to the middle of the slot. Turn the the crank so that one set of points is fully open and set the gap to .012-.014".

Rotate the crank about 120 degrees and set the next set of points to the right gap.

Repeat for the third set.

Now you have all three sets of points with the correct gaps, turn your attention to the fixed set of points. Set that set to open at the correct distance before TDC which will be about 24 degrees or so BTDC. Rotate the backing plate one way or the other to get the timing right but do not touch the other 2 sets at this time.

When the fixed set is right, check and adjust the second cylinder. Do not adjust the points gap but move that points assembly relative to the backing plate.

Repeat for the third cylinder.

In an extreme example it may not be possible to get the timing right on all 3 cylinders and if so it may be necessary to open or close a set of points to advance or retard the timing on that cylinder, but that should be a last resort.

It occurs to me that there is one more possibility and this one I see all too often. That's how the Dial Indicator is read. They are hard to read correctly and people usually get the reading back to front the first few times they try this.

[Coyote]

Yeah Jason. Don't confuse point gap with point timing. Even though both affect the points, they are 2 seperate settings. Point 'gap' comes first on all 3 sets. Finding the fiber heel on the highest point of the cam, set the gap by only loosining screw 'A'. Acceptable gap is .012 - .016. With all 3 gaps set, NOW get out the dial indicator. I don't know where you got 2.4mm from but that is NOT correct. No wonder your marks don't line up. The correct distance BTDC is 3.37mm or .132 on a thousanths indicator. Make sure you are rotating the engine in the correct direction. Easiest to use the kicker to determine that. Now with the indicator in the left hole, find TDC.. Rotate the engine backwards 5mm or so and then come back forward to 3.37mm (.132) Loosen the 3 screws that retain the plate. Put your test leads on and rotate the plate. The points will open somewhere in that range. When you have those points correct, tighten down the 3 screws. Now go all the way around and double check with your test leads attached to double check.
When satisfied the left is correct, finally thighten those 3 screws and forget them. They have no further action. Now move to the center cylinder and find 3.37mm BTDC. Loosen the appropriate screws 'B' and rotate the points plate till they crack open and retighten. Again, go all the way around and double check. Repeat for the right cylinder. If you get this all set up correctly, She WILL run! (NOTE) It's hard to get them dead on and can take quite a bit of time. Just try to hit somewhere between .132 and .136 and you'll be OK.

[jbswear]

I got 2.4mm from my manual. Wow. Yeah, that is a big difference.

Just for grins, I went out and started from scratch. I didn't use the dial indicator, but instead the timing marks. I set the gaps all to .014". Then I set the left and center cylinders to fire when the marks lined up. Good to go.

Then I went to the right cylinder. I heard the tiny "crack" when the points opened up as the marks lined up, but saw no spark on the plug. I had pulled the plug and had it grounded to the head. I finally got it to spark on the dot, so to speak.

Then I put it together and tried to run it. Again, left and center were good, but the right wouldn't fire. Then I pulled the plug wire. As I pull it off, it started firing. If I sit the plug wire on top of the plug, it'll fire really rough, but won't at all when completely attached to the plug.

It seems I've found the culprit.

Now then...Do I hunt for a new set of coils or is there an easier fix? I've never changed plug wires, but I'm sure it's something I can do.

[jbswear]

On a side note, I pulled the left and center plugs and they're BLACK with soot. I'm hoping that this is because I have to run it on choke to keep it going with the right cylinder out of action.

I raised the needle jet's clips one position, but am running it without filters as I trouble shoot it.

[tz375]

Sounds like a new set of plugs and new plug caps are in order. My guess is that the plug is fouled and needs more voltage to fire it. When you start to pull the plug cap off it creates a gap and voltage has to rise before it can jump teh gap and fire teh plug. It's an old trick that still works.

New plugs will probably be enough, but replace the caps just to be sure.

[jbswear]

Sounds like a new set of plugs and new plug caps are in order. My guess is that the plug is fouled and needs more voltage to fire it. When you start to pull the plug cap off it creates a gap and voltage has to rise before it can jump teh gap and fire teh plug. It's an old trick that still works.

New plugs will probably be enough, but replace the caps just to be sure.

That's the thing...The plugs ARE new. The right cylinder's plug is only "fouled" with wet oil/gas mix from running and not sparking.

BUT...(man I got a lot to learn)...I left the battery on a charger for a few hours. Now it fires on all three cylinders.

Now then...if I could only find that third pod filter so I can dial it in...

[Coyote]

Then I went to the right cylinder. I heard the tiny "crack" when the points opened up as the marks lined up

That tiny crack sound might point to a bad condensor. There should be no audible sound and a spark you can only see in the dark. Try swapping the condensors around and see if the problem follows the condensor. I have a few new ones if needed. Is your ignition Nippon Denso or Kokuson? The condensors I have are for Kokuson. Easy to tell as the Nippon Denso condensors mount parellel to the plate and the Kokuson condensors mount at a right angle to the plate. The set pictured is a Nippon Denso.

[jbswear]

Then I went to the right cylinder. I heard the tiny "crack" when the points opened up as the marks lined up

That tiny crack sound might point to a bad condensor. There should be no audible sound and a spark you can only see in the dark. Try swapping the condensors around and see if the problem follows the condensor. I have a few new ones if needed. Is your ignition Nippon Denso or Kokuson? The condensors I have are for Kokuson. Easy to tell as the Nippon Denso condensors mount parellel to the plate and the Kokuson condensors mount at a right angle to the plate. The set pictured is a Nippon Denso.

The breakers are new, but I have no clue what age the condensors are. Mine are the ND set. I'll find a set and replace them for peace of mind.

[tz375]

Jason,
Sounds like you are learning. It takes a while for it all to soak in though. Some of us have been at this stuff for over 40 years and I'm still learning.