X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

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fodder
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Suzuki 2-Strokes: T20 1965

Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by fodder »

I know the thread is two years old but I hope you're still on the forum!

Your bike looks great. I have just restored a 1965 model. I haven't touched the engine yet as I wanted to see how it runs. I think it will need rebuilding as power is not great and it smokes too much on one cylinder. Can you tell me where you got new seals from?
Thanks.
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Suzuki T20 1965
Tourmaster
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Suzuki 2-Strokes: X6 Hustler, GS1100EX
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by Tourmaster »

Well, its been a while for sure, but glad Sundial's notification emails are still working. BTW, nice Hustler ... or should I say Super Six.

When I needed new crank seals there was a guy from Australia who re-manufactured something like 50 complete sets. They were well made, and, as you can imagine, sold out in very short order.

Here's a couple of links to very good T20 part suppliers in the Netherlands. Looks like this first one may actually have a set: http://www.classicsuzukiparts.nl/2taktmenu/t200-t20/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't see any T20 seals listed on this website, but you could contact them anyways, as they may know of a source: http://www.knalnaarpotz.com/onderdelen/ ... ath=23_164" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've purchased stuff for my Hustler and Titan from these guys, and they are good to deal with IMO.

Since you are in the UK, have you tried contacting Crooks to see if they can help sourcing? Here's their link: http://www.crooks-suzuki.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also checked Paul Miller's ebay store here in North America ... but don't see any seals listed.

Hope this helps. BTW, nice bike and good luck with the engine rebuild.
Cheers
Bob (Tourmaster)
fodder
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Suzuki 2-Strokes: T20 1965

Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by fodder »

Thanks Bob, the links are very helpful. And thanks for your kind comments.

I have tried Crooks for a few things but haven't found them very helpful. They are nice enough when I call, but promise to call back and never do.
I have had better luck with Robinsons Foundry http://www.robinsonsfoundry.co.uk.

I will try these other guys and see what they have. I'll post on here if I get anything positive,

regards, Nick
Suzuki T20 1965
Vintageman
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by Vintageman »

While awaiting new seals you could always try some Blue Devil seal conditioner or ATP-205. Similar to what is added to high mileage engine oils.

Sometimes on twins (center seals where bearing are lubed by gear oil) the seal lip is dry. This stuff work in that case and won't gel the rubber too much.

But, if your seal is broken it is not magic. Seal needs to be changed.

if my bike, it ran well, and not plan for a rebuild/restore but was burning a little gear oil I would use this stuff.
Current registered, inspected, and running well 2 stroke motorcycles
74 GT250 (T350 upgrade),
76 GT250 (T350 upgrade),
71 T350,
70 T350,
74 GT380,
75 T500,
73 GT550,
75 GT750,
72 Yamaha DS7 (R5 upgrade),
77 Yamaha RD400 (Daytona Cyls),
73 Kawasaki H1 500
tricky1962
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Suzuki 2-Strokes: T500J
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by tricky1962 »

Fodder - I'm afraid I have to agree re:Crooks. When enquiring for the fourth time about an order and overhearing "tell him it'll be in Wednesday" yet again, I cancelled my order. I've also found Robinsons very useful though.

Vintageman - mine used to use 100ml of oil every 150 miles. I started with Forte Oil Seal Conditioner (a full 125ml tube's worth) and it stopped using oil after 400 miles. I currently put in half a tube (62ml) at each oil change and it doesn't use any oil between changes. This is cheaper than stripping the engine and getting the crank rebuilt so am going to persevere with this approach. I tried the Wynn's version from Halfords, but the oil consumption crept up again so went back to Forte.
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Alan H
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by Alan H »

Never had a problem with Crooks.
Been using them since 1972 when I crashed my first GT550 in Barrow in Furness just down the road from their shop!
Think of how stupid the average person is, then realise that half of them are more stupid than that.
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by Vintageman »

Joe the bike,

I also agree the T350 112.5 is main is too rich and 107.5 is better. Took a while to find that as my cause of bogging with 1/2 throttle or more.

tricky1962 wrote:version from Halfords, but the oil consumption crept up again so went back to Forte.
I don't know what forte is but those two I quoted had much about them.

I mix 8 oz or more :shock: with diesel and fill gear oil to the max. If needed I lift rear end of bike This will ensure the seals are sitting in highly concentrated mix. You can also fill the piston sides and drain via crankcase screws after.

I had a Gt250 crank rebuild once and the inner seal were returned to me (smoked like crazy). I could see no damage on any of the seals. There in no tension spring on the lip intended to block gear oil side of inner seals. I soaked these in straight Blue Devil or ATP-205 (forget which) and I could see them soften. I think this trick only works for this situation. Inner seal design of these twins suck. if you think they should last 40 years that is, and the oil is forced (slapped-pushed) by one of the gears so there is pressure and if not tight will slip by
Current registered, inspected, and running well 2 stroke motorcycles
74 GT250 (T350 upgrade),
76 GT250 (T350 upgrade),
71 T350,
70 T350,
74 GT380,
75 T500,
73 GT550,
75 GT750,
72 Yamaha DS7 (R5 upgrade),
77 Yamaha RD400 (Daytona Cyls),
73 Kawasaki H1 500
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jabcb
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by jabcb »

Sorry for highjacking the thread, but I noticed that joethebike & vintageman made comments about T350 jetting.

Have my 69 T350 carbs apart for cleaning.
Carbs are setup per the early-model spec:
30 pilot + 0.7 second pilot
Had Y21 (Keyster) jet needle & was going to switch to the cruizinimage jet needle (both with clip in position 2)
115 main jet

I have spare 112.5 main jets & just ordered 120 based on the old threads.
Have some old DP2 jet needles that might cleanup — they look filthy but don’t look worn.

Questions:
Should I stick with the 115 main jets?
Should I go with the cruzinimage jet needle (is it close enough to the DP2)?
Should I use jet needle position 3 with the 115 mains?


Old threads on T350 carbs:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10385
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7022
BAS (Bike Acquisition Syndrome) - too many bikes but have room for more

Suzuki:
GT750 2x75
GT550 72 & 75
GT380 72
T500 69 project & 73 project
T350 69 & 71
Honda 85 CB650SC & 86 CB700SC
09 Triumph Bonneville SE
tricky1962
To the on ramp
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by tricky1962 »

tricky1962 wrote:version from Halfords, but the oil consumption crept up again so went back to Forte.
I don't know what forte is but those two I quoted had much about them.

I mix 8 oz or more :shock: with diesel and fill gear oil to the max. If needed I lift rear end of bike This will ensure the seals are sitting in highly concentrated mix. You can also fill the piston sides and drain via crankcase screws after.
Merely passing on my experiences.

Halfords is a UK store where Wynn's (US manufactured) is available off the shelf.

Forte products are also US manufactured and available from Amazon in the UK.

ATP-205 is on Amazon at £60/ 8oz bottle over here!! so a bit expensive.

It's up to Nick I guess
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by Vintageman »

I think ATP-205 and Blue Devil is about $20.00 here is USA. ATP-205 not on shelf around me so have to buy online. What I can say is they do what they say
Vintageman wrote:Should I stick with the 115 main jets?
Should I go with the cruzinimage jet needle (is it close enough to the DP2)?
Should I use jet needle position 3 with the 115 mains?
jabcb.

Contact Paul Miller. Give him the part# of the later needle. He may have. I know about the later setup much better. Or see if he has the DP2.

I use clip 3 not clip 4 on the later t350 setup. 110 or 107.5 main is better than 112.5 IMO.


Well to your questions.

If the OEM needles are not worn ( use magnifying glass to prove this to yourself) just stained use the OEM needle.

If not, I would trust Keyster's needle over cruzin, but since you have an OEM needle you can check for yourself (not easy I know unless you have a comparator instrument or something).

I would go swith tock setup to start. I would not go up on main jet. If me I may use clip 3 to start but not clip 4 but I am biased and helps prove a test I'll explain next. Seams like stock is best place to start, but you may have to adjust if you are fussy about getting it perfect everywhere.

One way to know if it's too rich on main is run engine WOT and very very quickly snap it back to smaller throttle opening. If the engine gurgles for a moment and then cleans up it was too rich (of course what you snap back too is too rich as well then this wont work). This test works well!

As far as clip position go for a steady ride that uses the needle circuit only. Not a ride where you are trying to hyper mileage, just try to stick to running off needle jet circuit. You should get low 40 MPG (40 - 44). If less than 40 MPG (e.g 35 -37) move clip from 4 to 3.

With 0.7 secondary jet 35 pilot is a little too much (run air screw 2 to 2.5 turns out OK). If 32.5 pilot a little too lean but run air screw 1.25 to 1 turn out ok.

If the day is 90 F and humid versus 68F and dry you know the difference in not tuned very center to start.

You can get those T350 carbs tuned so the work very nice with T350 everywhere in the throttle range.

Also the bike likes stock timing if not a little more advance for stronger 3500-6500 RPM. And OK to rev past that for a moment (like a quick 0 to 60/70 mph pull) without worries. If the timing drifts a couple degrees retarted you will note the lack on this mid-range power.
Current registered, inspected, and running well 2 stroke motorcycles
74 GT250 (T350 upgrade),
76 GT250 (T350 upgrade),
71 T350,
70 T350,
74 GT380,
75 T500,
73 GT550,
75 GT750,
72 Yamaha DS7 (R5 upgrade),
77 Yamaha RD400 (Daytona Cyls),
73 Kawasaki H1 500
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jabcb
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by jabcb »

Vintageman, thanks for the update.

I’m definitely not carb expert, but this is my understanding:

corrected stock specs are:
year: jet needle / needle jet / pilot / main / air screw
70-72: 5DL13-4 / P-6 / 35 / 112.5 round / 1-1/2
69: 5DP-2 / Q-0 / 30 / 170 hex (equiv.. 120 round) / not sure

The two setups are matched sets.
If I switch to 5DL13, then I need to make the other changes too.

You started with the later setup & went leaner:
main: 112.5 => 107.5
clip: 4 => 3
pilot: 35 w/ air turned out, or 32.5 w/ air turned in

I have the early setup & went leaner on the main only:
main: 120 => 115 (same two-step change you used)
jet needle: 5DP2 => Keyster Y21 (equivalent???)

I have a few eBay spare carbs that I got a while ago because of a bad carb on my 71 T350.
The 5DP were in those spares. Will try cleaning them when I clean the carbs on my 69 T350.

I don’t have the tools to compare the needles.

I’m leaning towards sticking with the 115 main & trying to switch to 5DP2.
(Leave everything else early stock.)
(Will use new stock pilot & needle valve.)
BAS (Bike Acquisition Syndrome) - too many bikes but have room for more

Suzuki:
GT750 2x75
GT550 72 & 75
GT380 72
T500 69 project & 73 project
T350 69 & 71
Honda 85 CB650SC & 86 CB700SC
09 Triumph Bonneville SE
Vintageman
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Re: X6 Hustler Bogging at Speed

Post by Vintageman »

jabcb,

I think you understand well. I agree 115.

I ran the early carb setup you referenced (accept 170 Hex) on both a T305 and T350 (later cylinder with extra 2 little exhaust ports). It ran OK in both case. That was early on and don't recall how fussy I was. At the moment I have two T350 (3rd project should be done soon and building a 4th t350 engine to drop in another 250 if I find one or whatever) and all are running later carb setup for that's what i have more of and now understand me thinks.

One of my bikes has the 112.5 and the other has the 107.5 round main. Both are good but the 107.5 is better. I'll explain what I mean.

The T350 is small for a 350, so if climbing a hill for example and you are running say 4000 -5000 rpm and you give more throttle to hold speed, approach 3/4 throttle with 112.5 in it, it will bog and need to down shift. But with 107.5 it won't bog and just may make the grade and even accel. It's subtle but the need not to shift is impressive and rewarding. The bike has good torque as long as it isn't drowning with too much fuel. If you do that test I mention you will know if too rich. Too lean it will pull harder when you snap back off WOT to say 3/4 throttle.

Stock timing is OK but if it retards you'll need to down shift.... loose the mid-range torque it is suppose to have.

I am impressed at the torque the little engine has when its jetted and timed correctly. I ride these bikes more than any any of my others I think. I know they should get in the +40 mpg riding normal on rural roads. When Pilot is jetted correctly it will climb the whole RPM range holding steady at just a little throttle. No pinging either. The T350 is a sweat little two stroke: good torque from 3000 - 8000 rpm.

It's a pain to take those carbs off and on to adjust jets, but sounds like you may be lucky first time
Current registered, inspected, and running well 2 stroke motorcycles
74 GT250 (T350 upgrade),
76 GT250 (T350 upgrade),
71 T350,
70 T350,
74 GT380,
75 T500,
73 GT550,
75 GT750,
72 Yamaha DS7 (R5 upgrade),
77 Yamaha RD400 (Daytona Cyls),
73 Kawasaki H1 500
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