GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

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yeadon_m
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by yeadon_m »

While we are exchanging sounds, this is among my favourites, and was the final prompt for me to buy a Kettle after a mere 35 years of not doing so :-))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfHmJA9aQas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mine however is wearing stock pipes. I like the sound, but stock pipes are getting tired / woofy / rattly where I am.

So I also have a new set of Delkevic repros which I've not yet fitted. Here in UK they are like 'marmite' (personally, on that ghastly mess, I am in the Hate camp...my kids in the Love - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Some folks really hate the higher pitched 'tinkly' sound they report for Delkevic. I'm neutral till I've had mine running on them. The certainly look very stock to me.

Cheers,
Mike
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by Vintageman »

Tz375,
I wasn't thinking the issue was down low with a 3 into 1 it is poor top end. Why can't they let you get to 8000 RPM.

You may be correct that sleds don't make power below say 4-5 K rpm, but I spent many years restoring on old sleds late 70s early 80s Ski Doo and one comes to mind for example is the 70/s Rotax 440E F/C twin when specifically placed in the Everest. Gets a nice soft pink primary spring (kicks in under 3K RPM if I recall and she lugs like a tank, and will rev to 8000k.) That pipe is still r a tuned 2 into 1 same as T’nT got with higher pirimary clutch RPM

Again you may be correct on who cares about bottom end when setting up sleds, but I thought we were talking about top end gain on 3 into 1 being the issue?

My point is they should be better on top then what I hear they do for GTs. Maybe they are better than stock. can any attest to that?

If we don't have say Dynamics exhaust power valve: fixed ports, there is a trade off as we shift power in the band

I would like to see a 3 into 1 for GT triples do that versus stock though not as well as separate 3 into 3.
Just like tuned single pipes do for snowmobiles in my narrow experience
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by titan performance »

I used a 3-1 on my 750 back in the early 80's. The bike ran perfectly, and there was absolutely no detectable loss of performance at all. I made no changes to the stock settings whatsoever. The pipe was a "Piper", and like all 3-1 pipes had a reputation for stifling performance.

Tim and I have had a 3-1 project on the go for some time, which we hope to finish quite soon, and use on our own 750. The headers and all the components of the proto-type are made, and just need welding together. We hope to recreate the sound of the Piper, but with a better design and finish. Once it's done, I shall post pictures on the forum.
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by Vintageman »

titan performance;

I don't think Piper had a chamber. Did it?

Was it performance like stock or less upper band?


What are you thinking to do.

I will get a 3 into 1 for one for GT someday.

If it works as good as stock OK little better nice to have

At one point I thought (for sound) 4 into 1 was best for inline four stromes and seperate for 2 strokes, Now I have shift or should saw like both

4 stroke seperate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTvNHJ25-M0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4 stroke combined
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQfI6TPbIfg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More 3 in to 1 sounds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVPIoHD2nGk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEF9qgqN8vsonclick=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"window.open(this.href)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xez9lIh ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6opJ6_onclick=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"window.open(this.href);return false; (musical instrument)

How can you pick just one.
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by tz375 »

Yes, there's a high end performance issue, but I think that Ja-moo was making reference to a narrower powerband which is easier to live with a on a sled than a bike.

I have looked at sled pipes on twins and triples and one characteristic they share are extremely short headers. Modern combo pipes on sleds have very short headers that are also tapered. Without testing, my hypothesis is that shorter header section reduces loss of energy in the returning waves and teh taper helps to prop up the top end.

The software I use doesn't support 3 into 1 pipes and the only simulations I have seen using the more expensive package did not track well to reality in that 2 into 1 design. Whether that's a data input error or software shortcoming I have no idea.

There are two fundamental issues in a 3 into 1 pipe. The first is the collector which has to be long and smooth to aid gas flow and short so as not to disrupt wave formation. That will be a compromise regardless.

The second issue is wave timing. When the port open, a high pressure wave travels down the pipe, as it travels down the divergent nozzle, it is reflected back as a negative wave to help evacuate the cylinder. As it travels down the baffle cone, it is reflected back as a positive or stuffing wave.

With a 3 cylinder motor with exhaust timing of say 90 degrees BBDC opening and 90 ABDC closing, that low pressure sucking action lasts from about BDC through to just before the port close at which time the stuffing wave arrives just before the port closes. So - high pressure 90BBDC to say BDC, Low pressure BDC to say 70ABDC and then stuffing wave 70 -90ABDC.

Still with me? Good.

The timing issue is that there is 60 degrees of overlap between any two cylinders. One is closing 60 degrees after another exhaust port opened. That means that at resonant frequency, one stuffing wave arrives just as the next cylinder is still emptying, so it makes it harder for that next cylinder to empty effectively. The negative sucking wave from that second cylinder is now getting back as the first expects a stuffing wave, so both actions are diluted and the pipe is not effective.

At much lower revs though, things are different because the waves are all arriving early. Wave pressures are much lower amplitude, so they are less disruptive to the other cylinders.

Just working out when waves arrive on three different cylinders at different speeds is enough to cause acute brain fade. :?
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by Vintageman »

Tz375,

I just didn't want us to stop just short by saying sleds were so different it can’t be solved for street bikes too quickly. I mean dang that 76 GT250A I have is so dead under 4000 RPM it needs a torque converter for lazy street riders who don’t want to slip the clutch.

Yes sleds are a very different challenge than bikes, but you understand why I keep pushing you guys.

Sleds also had to solve their problem due to size and area under the hood (heat) too (open hood gathers snow) I think and so their engineer kept focused and must have run a lot of theory and test to prove out results

Yes, I stayed with you.

I agree and also realized collector design is real short on sleds and the shape matters. That 440 F/C Rotax I mentioned was short, but existed sharp to the right for space constriants. People on that vintage sled forum wiser than I said that was a problem with that early design and later models made it short and straight exit (had to lengthen space to hood)

I think you may have nailed it. And thus the myth of 3 into 1 may be worse than stock true? for stock is tuned I am sure and 1 on 1

With multi cylinders you have to be careful about long travel times for you have to share the 360 degree period as you pointed out

Conclusion
I am going to design nice, none nicked, tight 3 into 1 shape collector and then off chamber of that. I have all three bikes now.

Challenges maybe that dang radiator is in the way.

In my pile of stuff I think I have a Rotax 600 triple collector and pipe. I’ll see how close it is to fitting for room.

would need to have it bend down sharper though. Or flip it for think it bent up a bit in the sled, but not enough

This makes me think of the early 73/74 Yamaha TX750 4 stroke twin collector design as one extreme
Thanks!
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by Vintageman »

The quest for a proper 3 into 1

I did more research into this both snowmobiles and Personal Water Craft. These are now two examples of how to do a 3 into best as possible.

For both What you can see is the collector design is short and then the chamber right after.

The snowmobile shape tries to be smooth and on triples effort to ensure the center get same pressure as outers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXHAUST-MANIFOL ... 6d&vxp=mtr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKI-DOO-MXZ-FOR ... 6e&vxp=mtr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
These are a little long and straight. Maybe I could get one and prototype for GT380 or FT350. The GT750 spacing is not even center left to center to right.

Snowmobile design look like two halves of stamped steel, spot welded together.


The PWC is liquid cooled so the manifold and even the performance expansion chamber are liquid cooled, But what I like from this is how short/compact the collector is.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/polaris-sl-slt- ... 7c&vxp=mtr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polaris-780-tri ... 57&vxp=mtr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Probably not as good as snowmobile performance, but still nice for the Street RPM we need. The GT750 radiator makes it tight unless you can swoop down right away
So this design approach is casting.

You could probably do this collector design welding up many metal cone pieces together as well.

I am an electronic engineer and work with many mechanical engineer, They have pointed me to Solid Works or Pro E to design the manifold up, They have a machine that can make plastic proto types for fit test.

What I am thinking is buying the center pipes only from Jemco for GT380-750 and have them fit to this custom collector.

Should I quite my day job. How many could I Sell?
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by tz375 »

Did you notice that the three cylinder manifolds split the center flow in two and merge those halves into the side runners and then merge the sides. In many ways not unlike a stock exhaust design with cross overs but all much shorter.

I didn't stop to consider what difference that might make, but it's interesting.
Last edited by tz375 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by Vintageman »

Yes I did,

Polaris, Ski Doo to do that, balances I suppose. Shows attention to detail.

Polaris I think was first with triple in maybe 1979 a 500cc. Fuji (Jap) motor. Not 100% sure I was more into Rotax

Yamaha different
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Viper-Sn ... 58&vxp=mtr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The PWC some are real tight designs,
but clearly still performance on mind.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Viper-Sn ... 58&vxp=mtr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.


This must be how to do it right
Check out the pipe
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by tz375 »

titan performance wrote:I used a 3-1 on my 750 back in the early 80's. The bike ran perfectly, and there was absolutely no detectable loss of performance at all. I made no changes to the stock settings whatsoever. The pipe was a "Piper", and like all 3-1 pipes had a reputation for stifling performance.

Tim and I have had a 3-1 project on the go for some time, which we hope to finish quite soon, and use on our own 750. The headers and all the components of the proto-type are made, and just need welding together. We hope to recreate the sound of the Piper, but with a better design and finish. Once it's done, I shall post pictures on the forum.

Piper had a terrible reputation for power loss but people loved them for the sound and how much less they weighed. That alone equals out the power drop.
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by tz375 »

Yes, Fuji made the earlier XLT and Ultra and storm triples before they changed suppliers.

Can't wait to see what anyone comes up with and to see how well it works on the dyno. Remember to stay with stock ports though to minimize losses at the top end.
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by titan performance »

It's common knowledge that the 3-1 can't work efficiently, though most probably don't understand the technicalities of why not. As you say TZ, most purchasers just prefer the look of the 3-1, and the sound can be awesome.
I really did not detect any change in the performance of my 750 after I fitted the Piper...and I was expecting to, so any difference was negligable. It was the sound that was enough for me...

The pipe Tim and I are making will be similar to the Piper in design. It will have a chamber, which we know doesn't work, but it looks right, and there will be an internal cone before exiting through a 75mm or so, tail. I think the vast majority of owners will happily sacrifice an undetectable loss of power, for a custom look, and an unbelievable exhaust note.

I plan to take the 750 to the TT this year, so we need to get our fingers out ! The sound of a howling 3-1 through the Glen Helen section will turn heads like nothing else......
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by Suzukidave »

I have always liked the look of this 3-1 best Image
the older i get the faster i was
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by tz375 »

Thanks Dave.
A TCE Pipe of Gordon Lamb's Grey Ghost IIRC.

Nice pipe designed by Tommy Crawford that knows more about pipe than the rest of us combined. I had been offered one but it took me so long to get back to the seller that it had long gone.

That is one pipe that I'd like to strap to a dyno and test. I have no idea where people used to buy them though.
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Re: GT750 Exhaust. (3 into 1, 3 into 3, stock)

Post by Blokhead »

tz375 wrote:Did you notice that the three cylinder manifolds split the center flow in two and merge those halves into the side runners and then merge the sides. In many ways not unlike a stock exhaust design with cross overs but all much shorter.

I didn't stop to consider what difference that might make, but it's interesting.



I think this was done to try to make the center pipe length the same as the outside two.
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