mixed emotions -- Nissan Leaf

[Coyote]

Nissan has finally released their all electric Leaf. For the good, zero emissions and no tail pipe. The car is currently being mass produced in TN I think. As the car only travels 100 miles per charge, it's not a vehicle you would use for long trips or vacation. Recharge time is unknown (by me).
Here's what gets me though. Electricity is produced by the burning of fuel or natural gas. Some is produced in nuclear power plants, but the by products are worse than what comes out of anyone's tail pipe. So if you have to burn fuel to produce the electric, where's the savings? True, no gas prices to worry about ever again but I'll bet your electric bill will more than reflect that.
So I don't get it. How is it saving the environment as you need to burn fuel to produce the electric to charge the car? I have a feeling this could turn into a great discussion. For those of you that are not familiar with the Leaf, there are some videos here: http://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf?v=ap ... 5255803127" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Click on watch the event.

[Coyote]

I was talking to my son. He tells me that he read somewhere that by the end of 2011, all major car manufactuers will be producing at least one all electric car. Now all we need is an elecric Hardly.
One member hit the nail right on the head with his signature.
Harley Davidson, the worlds best known way to turn fossil fuel into noise.

[Suzsmokeyallan]

As long as you have to plug it in to recharge it, its not eco-friendly at all, its a lot of 'buy green' hype if you ask me. Coyote you nailed the coffin shut with your assumptions about whats actually re-charging it, MORE emissions to do that, but now coming from a power company instead.
Fuel cell or bio diesel technology are the only two sources at present showing promising avenues for 'real world' mass consumption in a vehicle.
I think of these econo-box electric cars like I think about those battery powered hand tools everyone's so mad for these days, they are nothing more than pretty little toys.

[advant63]

the production of the battery cells are a ecological disaster on their own.
a car like that would only be feasible if you had a solar farm or windmills.

[jkevinlilly]

a car like that would only be feasible if you had a solar farm or windmills.

And I don't know a lot of people with either.

I have done "real world" environmental protection work for over 27 years, and it does not make sense to me either.

Kevin

[Suzsmokeyallan]

Its amazing how this whole electric car thing has gotten, its mostly to blame on devices not yet invented that hinder the completion of an idea.
Take batteries for example, at present there are no batteries available that can deliver a constant high output for a considerable time without being big and heavy.
Any electric vehicle that wants to be called a car needs a specific battery source that's lightweight, powerful, easy to make, 'green' and cheap.
By todays standards thats just not available, and the sad thing is it probably never will be anytime soon.
So what do you get for your money now, an expensive vehicle with about 400 pounds of hazardous material you're actually sitting on that can only travel roughly 100 miles.
Remember though, it doesnt go 100 miles and then stops, at about 70 miles or so its going to be running on ever reduced performance figures as the power source quickly depletes.
So much for technology and all its high tech wizardry, under it all is the same old battery problems we have been having since they were invented.
You will be no worse off buying a really nice golf cart and wiring up a solar panel on the roof that recharges the battery packs.

[markj]

Right, solar wind farms, hydro-electric are the only green alternatives. I've often wondered why not natural gas. Plentiful in the US, good octane ratings and nearly 0 emissions.

[tz375]

LNG is not a bad fuel but there are better alternatives. In fact T Boone Pickins is supposedly investing in an LNG project.

Logistics are not a simple solution though and again it is not a one-size-fits-all solution. LNG is being used to power generators and is being exported all over the world.

If you look at the projections you will find that we need to exploit all the new technologies as well as considerably reducing our consumption per capita. They are still finding new oil but it is getting more expensive and the risks are growing.

Shale oil is another example of negative economics and so is Ethanol. Electric cars are a logical step in the technological revolution. Their development spurs new inventions in battery technology and control systems and electric motors. Are they a long term answer? Probably not, but they are probably a useful step in the evolutionary process.

One thing we need to do in the US is to reduce our electricity consumption by about 50% or more. We have looked at a couple of interesting technologies that reduce electrical consumption in commercial lighting by between 25 and 85%. It's a start.

CFL are a good step along that path, but are not perfect and have some issues of re-cycling safely. None of these are the silver bullet but they are all good first steps to containing energy wastage.

[Suzsmokeyallan]

I personally like bio diesel and the new generation of diesel engines, very quiet, all aluminum castings for lightweight, twin cams, common rail technology and variable valve timing. Simple effective and cheap compared to the 'other' so called green alternatives.
Does it matter the emissions are also meeting current standards or even bettering them, of course it does, so its not adding to the problem.
Its working well in Europe and most manufacturers have more than two models in their lineup catering to this market.
The problem is most Americans are not liking it, the first thing you hear is it costs more than gasolene, this is true at present pump prices, but it would have to cost TWICE as much as gasolene to have the same ratio of GPM gallons per mile travelled.

http://www.dieselforum.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[krwalsh]

Full disclosure: I am on the waiting list for a LEAF, with an expected delivery date in February.

Range:
The stated range for the LEAF is 100 miles. Just like a normal ICE car, this can vary quite a bit. Hoon it around on a hot day with the AC running and you may only go 60 or 70. Drive it like a grandma with all of the accessories off and it is more like 120. My daily commute is just over 20 miles, each way, most of it stop and go driving. At the nominal range, I will only use 40% of the available range on a daily basis. I'd have plenty left over to run errands, go out after work, and still never worry about running low. Additionally, the navigation system on the LEAF is tied into the battery, and communicates lots of information about what range you have. It will draw a range circle for you, so you can figure out how far you can go. If you put in a destination, it will map the route for you, tell you how much battery will be used for that trip, and how much you'll have left when you get there. It will show you where along your route the publicly available charge stations are. If you ignore all of this, as the battery gets very low, it starts being less subtle. It will eventually shut down the AC, radio, and other accessories to conserve power. If you ignore that, it will eventually enter a power saving mode, where it cuts the maximum current to the motor, causing you to accelerate more slowly. You'd have to very intentionally run it out of battery power to end up on the side of the road.

Charging:
There are three charging possibilities. The first is to simply plug the car into the 110VAC outlet. This is a low current charge, and will take approximately 20 hours to go from 0 to 100%. This is not envisioned as a normal charge for most people, but could be used to "top up" the battery away from home, or if you ignore every other warning, to plug it in at the gas station where you coast to a stop.

The "normal" charger is a 220VAC charger that is installed at your home. It has a dedicated plug for the car, and can charge form 0 to 100% in about 8 hours. This plug is a standard now and works with the Tesla, LEAF, Chevy Volt, etc.

The "fast" charger is typically installed at businesses that you might visit, and want to quickly charge your car while you are shopping or doing other business. The fast charger can charge the LEAF battery from 0 to 80% in about half an hour.

Electric Generation:
You are correct, if all we did is shift the power from gasoline to coal, we would not be doing any good from an emissions point of view. We would, however, be doing a lot from an energy security point of view. We don't have to supply money to people in the world that may not like us much if we used coal power. However, coal is not necessarily the best power source either. Natural gas, which powers many power stations, is much clearer than burning gasoline for your car. Switching from gasoline to natural gas is therefore cleaner and better for energy security. Even better would be to switch to renewable power. California (where I live) is now just short of 20% renewable power for our electricity grid. This is largely hydroelectric, but also solar, wind, and geothermal. Switching from gasoline to renewable is clearly better from a pollution and an energy security point of view. I have a 1.8kW solar panel array on my roof. It powers my home now, and supplies excess power to the grid. Depending on how you do the math, one could argue that my LEAF will be pollution-free as it is charged from the power I generate.

Other Comments:
I do not think the electric car is the panacea for all of our pollution, energy security, and personal transportation options. I think it is better than most solutions available today, for the driving that I do on most days. I do have a another car for longer trips. It is a VW TDI, for those that were suggesting diesels as an option. It gets excellent gas mileage (45mpg, typically, vs about 23 for the non-diesel turbo Jetta wagon). There are numerous unanswered questions about heavy metals disposal at the end of battery life, how long the batteries will last (though it comes with an 8 year, 100,000 mile battery warranty), and other technical and environmental issues. Certainly if there was a mass swing in this direction the current electrical grid could not handle the load. I think this is unlikely, as even optimistic projections put the electric car segment of the market below 5% for years to come.

Bringing this back around to motorcycles, the bikes running the TTXGP are quickly coming up in power and range. They have power specs that rival those of the 600cc sportbikes. Take a look at Mission Motors or the Moto Czysz bikes to see what I mean. Electric motors make 100% torque at 0 rpm, so they are excellent for acceleration. This is one reason the Tesla can do 0-60 in less than 4 seconds.

[Craig380]

I believe hybrids are the way forward -- but not the Prius kind, which have a horribly complex transmission with a half-assed petrol motor AND a half-assed electric motor.

I reckon it'll be more like the diesel-electric rail locos, where the fossil-fuel motor will simply drive a generator when needed to top up the batteries, and electric traction motors will drive the wheels. I believe the Chevy Volt does it this way, and a couple of European manufacturers are doing it this way too. Jaguar has a gas-turbine hybrid it's working on, using an ultra-compact turbine, far smaller than, say, the 60's Chrysler turbine cars.

Another avenue -- and one that is so simple, you wonder why it hasn't been done before -- is from the French giant, Peugeot / Citroen. Their approach is, have a conventional front-wheel drive diesel powertrain, with electric traction motors and a small battery pack driving the rear wheels. Sort of electric assist, rather than true hybrid.

That way, you can get super-economy mode (electric-only drive in town below 35mph for 10 miles or so), normal mode (diesel only, typically at highway speeds) or hybrid / sports, for max acceleration. By combining the diesel and electric motors, you can get 180bhp and 300+ ft-lb of torque. They claim an average of over 50 miles per imperial gallon, and super-low emissions.

[Coyote]

krwalsh, do you have any other specs on the Leaf? I am interested to see what the car 'can do'. Accelaration specs and top speed.
What happened to the push toward hydrogen powered cars? The only emission from them is clear water.

[krwalsh]

Most of the specs can be found on their website, here:
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric- ... -car/index" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The motor is 80kW, or 107HP.
Top speed is listed as 90mph, but this is almost certainly electronically limited.
Nissan has not published 0-60 times for the LEAF, but reporters test driving them have timed it at 7 seconds flat. For comparison, the 2005 Mini Cooper S that I am replacing does 0-60 in 6.5 seconds, so while not super-car quick, that is a respectable time for a little "economy car." Quicker than almost any Honda Civic, as a comparison.

Hydrogen is another solution, although not my favorite by a long shot. The source of most hydrogen is steam reformation from natural gas. So, you're not dealing with a "renewable" source, really. Yes, you can split water to form hydrogen, but typically the energy you put in to do so is on the same order as the energy you get back, so you're not creating a source, per se. Hydrogen suffers from the fact that the fueling network is not in place. Gasoline, diesel, and electricity do not suffer from this shortcoming. I think the closest to market with a hydrogen fuel cell is Honda, and last I heard they had put it on the back burner. We had one here at work one day for a show and tell, and IIRC they rep told me the prototype sitting in the parking lot was worth about $1.5M. That is a long way from production...

[Suzsmokeyallan]

With current technology I'm surprised no one has even considered making a modern version of a steam powered vehicle.

[krwalsh]

Ummmm.....

http://www.steamcar.co.uk/design.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;