A revelation!!!

[bikegeezer]

Am i missing something here?? the ad shows a motorcycle reflector yet the one you are holding Stu is a car one, so which one are they selling???

Yes, you're missing something, Allan. You're likely looking at the wrong unit on that website. The BOSCH unit shown on that website is exactly what I'm holding in my hand in my photo, so these clearly are not for you. DOT and SAE specs for motorcycle beam pattern and focus have changed over the years, and these new Bosch lenses meet those latest specs. Your opinion of the lens pattern notwithstanding, these are NOT car headlamps. They have the word "motorcycle" and the specs they meet imprinted in the glass. But why argue with me? I'm just a simpleton who feels he can trust products from a company like Bosch to be exactly what they claim them to be. And Candlepower isn't exactly a fly-by-night operation, either. So my suggestion to you would be to call the folks at Candlepower and explain to them the error of their ways. In fact, I'll call them on Monday if you like and express your concerns. I'm sure they'll be horrified to learn that Bosch duped them into buying a large overstock of fraudulently labeled product.

Stu

[Suzsmokeyallan]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and this is definately one of those i do not endorse. Its NOT a symmetrical pattern of flutes on the beam unit you are holding Stu and so it does NOT qualify as a dedicated motorcycle unit.
If you are happy to use it, then I'm happy for you, I'll stick to using the symmetrical type that I know is recommended for motorcycles.

Heres the main giveaway for it being a car unit, the asymmetrical quadrant area marked in red is ONLY found on car units, NEVER on motorcycle units.
If that unit you have was for a RHD car the quadrant marked in red would be on the other side of the reflector. Would you still use it then as well in the USA??
The lower photo shows the correct pattern which is what should be used on a motorcycle.
Notice the wider spaced flutes on the lower sections and the lack of an asymmetrical quadrant fluted area.

If they decided to cut production costs and imprint an addition "motorcycle" raised lettering onto the lamp with the car pattern, then so be it, but that does not make it correct.

[bikegeezer]

Allan,
Sometimes, I wonder if you stay up all night trying to find fault with things and people. Whether or not these lamps are considered "dedicated" means nothing to me as long as they're suitable - meet current specs and get the job done. You dwell on technicality more than anyone I've ever seen. You don't like 'em? Fine. But don't try to convince the rest of us that they're unsuitable. They are suitable, and they're a hell of a deal. And I'd better shut up now, because your harangue is really starting to bother me.

Stu

[Suzsmokeyallan]

Thank you for your opinion Stu, and again i reiterate its just that, your opinion.
Too bad if i'm bothering you, you are not bothering me in the least.

In case you didnt notice,Candlepower offer also the version of unit i posted below the one you bought, which says what exactly??? see if you can figure it out.

[tz375]

I am missing something here. The Candlepower website clearly states that the lamp they are offering is for motorcycles and that it complies with DOT etc.

Candelpower list a number of different motorcycle reflectors and they seem to use the same picture regardless of size or application, so there's no guarantee that any of them look exactly like that picture.

Stu isn't offering an opinion as to what he thinks he might get away with. He's quoting the supplier. They should know what they are talking about, but it is always possible that they made a mistake.

Is it possible that the unit in that photo was either a different unit from the same supplier or maybe the unit actually does look like that. I was under the impression that not all lenses look the same and maybe this one is designed with a different right side cut off for whatever reason.

So let's all chill.

[H2RICK]

Firstly, that unit that Candlepower is selling as a Bosch "motorcycle" headlight is exactly what I use in my 550 and 650....but....without the "motorcycle approval" identifier molded into the lens. Also, there is NO specific DOT/SAE molding on the lens of any of the reflectors I've used in the past either. Both units work well and I'm pleased with the pattern as well as the "throw" of light down the road. I've used Bosch and/or Cibie cage reflector units in my bikes since 1970 and have been very happy with both manufacturers' stuff since that time.

Secondly, I've ridden various bikes with the "motorcycle pattern" reflectors (that were identified as such) from both Koito and Stanley. Regardless of which bike they were mounted on/in, I was disappointed in the patterns from both manufacturers as well as the throw of light down the road. The lack of light MAY have been due to the lame OEM bulbs but I have no way to ascertain that. The beam pattern, though, was less than adequate IMO, even if the pattern DID meet whatever standard....JIS/SAE/DOT. So.....those stock relectors got binned and Bosch or Cibie cage units went in ASAP.

Thirdly, I believe/believe what's happening with the whole Candlepower/Bosch thing is NOT exactly what Candlepower says on their website. My take on the whole thing is that Bosch might have thought they could flog some SBQ-7s with a "motorcycle" identifier on them to some unsuspecting motorcycle manufacturer. However....that manufacturer caught Bosch's little trick and made them take the product back.
....OR.....
it was a genuine error on Bosch's part, believing there was no difference in legal requirements for the beam pattern. Regardless, Bosch ended up with a truckload of reflectors that no motorcycle manufacturer could LEGALLY use because of the beam pattern for cages. Ditto for car manufacturers and automotive aftermarket parts stores because of the "motorcycle" identifier. I think Candlepower may want to discuss the whole thing with their legal department before they get THEIR butts in a sling courtesy of some sharp-eyed ambulance chaser.....or maybe they just got the reflectors at such a great price that they're willing to take a chance that no one will ever catch them......or that no accident will ever be attributable to an "illegal" reflector.

At the end of it all, I would NOT hesitate to buy and use these Bosch reflectors based on my past experience.
One word of caution though: Do NOT/NOT use low-rent off-brand bulbs in these reflectors and expect to get decent performance from the reflectors. I use either Bosch's own bulb or a bulb from Osram/Sylvania. Nothing else comes close for performance AND durability, IMO.

Addendum: in the units that I have in my bikes there ARE two Euro approvals cast into the lens. One is E2 and the other is E4....both in their own separate circles. There is also "HCR" cast below the "H4" identifier in the centre of the lens.
"HCR" ?? Headlight Car Right ???

[Suzsmokeyallan]

Rick heres what Suzuki offer as their present 7 inch H4 unit made by Koito. On the right side it states 'motorcycle halogen'. Note the standard symmetrical pattern of flutes which are spaced wider apart on the lower portion of the glass.
Would you like a part number for this???

[tz375]

This thread is getting a little off topic, but I just spent a few minutes researching National Vehicle standards - particularly Standard No. 108 and SAE J584 on headlamps and they are interesting but not illuminating (all puns intended).

The most interesting research paper I uncovered was by SP Sturgis of the Highway Safety Research Institute.

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream ... 01.001.pdf if you would like to check it out.

In that study they listed the headlamps under three categories for low beam:
Symmetric, Asymmetric and sharp cut off.

Most Stanley and one Koito were symmetric (like Allan's sample).

Most American manufactured motorcycle headlamps and the other Koito in the test sample were asymmetric similar to cars

Most European motorcycle headlamps were sharp cut off.

All were legal and were OEM supplied and should have been fully code compliant and DOT marked for motorcycle use.

The conclusion one can reasonably draw from that information is that DOT does NOT require a symmetric pattern.

The research also showed that there was NO significant performance difference between the three beam types and that light adjustment was a larger factor.

That Myth about motorcycles needing symmetrical beam patterns is Busted.

[H2RICK]

That Myth about motorcycles needing symmetrical beam patterns is Busted.

No arguments from me, TZ.

What the various authorities in your link are saying is that a reflector, lens and light source have to do so and so on low beam and such and such on high beam but mustn't do whatever in either case. How you, the reflector manufacturer, meet the requirements is up to you.

EDIT: It's interesting to note in that study that no one was able to figure out why symmetrical beam patterns were first decided upon for motorcycles or who first decided to put them on bikes.....or if there were even standards in ANY country requiring such a pattern on bikes.
I wonder what CURRENT standards in North America for motorcycle headlights really are.

[Suzsmokeyallan]

Richard thats interesting to note and thanks for sending the link. I'll stick with my symmetrical units as since the bikes only got one headlamp I prefer the low beam and high beam pattern to be 'even' in front of me.
As far as I know no single motorcycle headlamp from Japan fitted to a Japanese made bike has ever been asymmetrical, all i have ever seen are symmetrical.

[tz375]

I can't claim to know every bike from every manufacturer, let alone what the heck their headlamp pattern is.

I suspect that Japanese companies make them that way so that they can sell bikes in any country without swapping out the headlamps. That's one less localized part per bike to worry about.

[advant63]

i always thought, maybe wrongly, that a symmetric lens was an offroad lens.

[pjmcburney]

Both units work well and I'm pleased with the pattern as well as the "throw" of light down the road. I've used Bosch and/or Cibie cage reflector units in my bikes since 1970 and have been very happy with both manufacturers' stuff since that time.

Secondly, I've ridden various bikes with the "motorcycle pattern" reflectors (that were identified as such) from both Koito and Stanley. Regardless of which bike they were mounted on/in, I was disappointed in the patterns from both manufacturers as well as the throw of light down the road. The lack of light MAY have been due to the lame OEM bulbs but I have no way to ascertain that. The beam pattern, though, was less than adequate IMO, even if the pattern DID meet whatever standard....JIS/SAE/DOT. So.....those stock relectors got binned and Bosch or Cibie cage units went in ASAP.

At the end of it all, I would NOT hesitate to buy and use these Bosch reflectors based on my past experience.

I'm firmly with Rick on this.

I swapped the standard sealed-beam OEM light on my L for a Hella H4 insert - mainly to get a decent wattage lamp up front.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that (in a word) the H4 insert lamp is spectacular compared to the OEM sealed-beam, in fact it's the best light on any of my bikes.

Now, I know for a fact it's a car lamp and has an asymmetric lens pattern which tends to throw light left (as you'd expect in this part of the world), but I very much doubt it's illegal, it doesn't seem to annoy other road users, it has a great high-beam spread and I wouldn't hesitate for an instant recommending it to anyone as a replacement for the OEM unit.

It doesn't look 'right' as it has a flat rather than convex lens shape, but I'll go with more light from a great lamp over originality any day.

I'll dig out the model number if anyone's interested (should be available in the US as well).


Cheers
Paul