'74 GT550 crank bearings with built in slinger things?

[vdavidoff]

My crank is currently at Bill Bune. It was pulled apart to replace the oil seals. I am told my crank bearings show pitting and rust, so I am going to replace them. The person I'm working with at Bill Bune informs me he can get replacement bearings, but not exact replacements. Apparently there's some sort of an oil slinger built into the stock bearings, separate from the slinger(s) on the crank, and the bearings he can get don't have this. Perhaps the built in part is better described as a guide that directs the oil to the slinger. I am not sure, as I have not seen it.

At this point I am trying to determine if I can just have him use his parts to save time, or if I need to order OEM bearings. The main thing I'm unsure of is whether or not even OEM replacements no longer have this built in slinger thing. I'd like to avoid the time to order and ship the parts myself if anything I order is going to be missing that hardware, too.

Thanks for any insights.
Andy

[Suzsmokeyallan]

Andy the stock main bearings minus the one with the groove in it are still available from Suzuki so why not get them. This one particular grooved bearing does not fail so easily as its fed by transmission oil so they are usually ok.
What hes referring to is a lip on the bearings edge of the outer race. This part overlaps the oil guides on the crank so oil from the main bearing can cross over to the oil guide and then travel into the lower end bearing area through the flow holes made for this purpose.
Its very important to have it so do not fit a bearing without it there as the oil will not be able to cross over to the lower end pin and bearing.

[vdavidoff]

Thanks for the information. I'm a little confused about the parts now though, between your description and the fische.

The fische seems to indicate that bearing 09262-25036 is the one with the groove, both by its position on the crank in the diagram and what looks like a groove in the illustration. However, this bearing _does_ appear to be available (you indicated it wouldn't be).

3 other bearings in the fische, 09269-25010, appear to have grooves in the diagram, but upon closer inspection of the diagram, namely noting their proximity to oil slingers, I think what I'm actually seeing is the oil guides my original question was about. However, these 3 bearings appear to _not_ be available, which I guess would explain why Bill Bune cannot get them.

Am I reading this fische wrong, or looking at the wrong parts supplier? Both Power Sports Pro and Alpha Sports have fische that agree and are as described in terms of parts availability.

Update: This thread seems to indicate that I am reading the fische correctly, and the 3 bearings are in fact unavailable. So now I'm wondering if I should get 3 Koyo 6305 c3 (if I can) as that thread suggests should work, or just re-use the bearings that I believe are runnable, albeit slightly rusty (I realize how bad that sounds).

Thanks again.
Andy

[tz375]

If the BB tech says all bearings need replacing, order whatever parts they are and ship them to BB. Standard bearings without that slinger will cause a problem as Suzuki Allan mentioned.

[Rustygt550]

Andy,

You are correct in that the bearings with the oil guides are no longer available. In January this year I sent my 550 crank away to have it checked over & the seals changed. Luck my crank was fine & only needed 1 bearing changed & it was a bearing that was still available.

While talking to the crank builder ( John Nightingale from the UK) he said that the guides on the bearings that are NLA can be removed from your original bearings & pressed into readily available off the shelf bearings.

I have a NOS bearing with the guide that I will take a picture & post up later.

[vdavidoff]

Thanks, a picture would help greatly. I can't seem to find one that shows the oil guide. I am trying to determine if the Koyo alternative mentioned has those. I think it doesn't, but I'm not sure.

I guess if it doesn't, I'll see what BB thinks about pressing out the old guide and using it in a new bearing. The tech didn't mention this to me as a possibility. If they can do that, then I'll order what I can and let them press those into a suitable off the shelf replacement for the 3 with the guides. If they can't do that, then I guess I'll reuse the slightly worn bearings with the guides.

Thanks again.
Andy

[oldjapanesebikes]

Thanks, a picture would help greatly. I can't seem to find one that shows the oil guide. I am trying to determine if the Koyo alternative mentioned has those. I think it doesn't, but I'm not sure.

Take a look at this link for a better view of the oil guide - there are three, item number 17 on the Crankshaft fiche. If the old crank is taken apart carefully, I suspect you should be able to re-use the old guides - they actually snap into a lip on the bearing. And to see how that works - click on this link to download a PDF of the bearing design that was sent to me by JTEKT Corporation in Japan - I had looked at having the bearing re-manufactured. 83563-9 was their internal part number for the bearing they supplied to Suzuki. The problem was I didn't really need 1000 of them which was the minimum order

[vdavidoff]

Man, every time I think I know what I'm looking at...

I was under the impression that part 17 in the diagram you linked to was the "slinger", and that there was something else in addition to that built into the bearings that sit next to part 17. But you're saying that this oil guide/slinger thing I'm talking about is *only* part 17, and that it would have come off attached to the bearing nearest it? And that there's not some 3rd component built into the bearing?

Also, to make sure I'm looking at this drawing correctly, the "special collar" is what the slinger snaps onto, right?

Thanks again!
Andy

[oldjapanesebikes]

I was under the impression that part 17 in the diagram you linked to was the "slinger", and that there was something else in addition to that built into the bearings that sit next to part 17.

Nope - just one part, item #17 is the slinger which sort of snaps into a groove in the bearing

But you're saying that this oil guide/slinger thing I'm talking about is *only* part 17, and that it would have come off attached to the bearing nearest it? And that there's not some 3rd component built into the bearing?

Correct

Also, to make sure I'm looking at this drawing correctly, the "special collar" is what the slinger snaps onto, right?

No - the 'special collar' is KOYO speak for what Suzuki calls an oil guide plate and for what most folks on the board call a slinger. Clear as mud eh ?

If you check the link I gave in the earlier post that takes you to the hard copy of the 1974 parts manual, once you have the crankshaft page open, the portion of the picture at the lower part of the page showing #17 also shows the spigot on the slinger - the slinger is installed into the side of the bearing with the spigot facing into the crank web and oil then is thrown from the roller cage of the bearing into the big end via the spigot. That is what Allan and Richard were mentioning earlier - without the slinger, you risk having the big ends under lubricated.

The PDF as mentioned before was supplied to me by an engineer at JTEKT Corporation which made the bearings for Suzuki - I've previously posted it on this board,so it isn't new info but its been a couple of years. With that information, any good machinist should be able to modify a stock bearing to give you what you need,and re-use the old slingers. Hopefully BB didn't ruin the slingers when disassembling the crank, as it is not hard to damage them.

[vdavidoff]

Alright, I think I've got it then. Thanks again to all. Extremely helpful as always!

All things considered about this project, I'm going to see if BB is willing to just reuse the bearings with the slingers on them. I hate to even propose that on principle alone, but given the probable cost, effort, and risk of engineering together replacements, and my plans for the bike, so long as the parts aren't shot (I don't believe they're anywhere close to shot) I'm willing to stick with them.

Andy

[Rustygt550]

Pictures as promised,

[vdavidoff]

Thank you, that picture is extremely helpful.

To me, having seen that picture, it looks to me like we actually are talking about 2 different components here. The little guide snapped into the bearing, and the bigger slinger (#17 in the diagram).

I came to this conclusion after also reviewing the pictures I took of my assembled crank before sending it off. It looks like the snap in guide on the bearing sits inside a lip on the slinger. Does that seem right to more than just me? Annotated picture attached.

This doesn't really change how I'm moving forward but for the sake of anyone coming after me, I'd like this thread to be as accurate as possible. Apologies up front if I'm still the one who's confused here.

Andy

[oldjapanesebikes]

Mea culpa - and apologies. Clearly it is three pieces (bearing, collar and slinger).

[tz375]

Not exactly. It's really two parts. The bearing with that slinger guide thing installed plus part 17.

Yes the guide in teh beraing is sprung into place but it won't fit into a standar bearing. One side of teh outer race is machined to take that part. So to me it's two parts - bearing and slinger.

The slinger is attached to the crank pin by virtue of a dimpled oil feed which slides inside the big end pin and locates it. The bearing then presses the #17 against the crank.

Once you see the parts, it's obvious and until you see them it remains a mystery.

If you need shots of a #17, let me know and I'll grab a few of the parts from a dead crank I had stripped a year or two ago.

[vdavidoff]

After speaking with the tech at Bill Bune, here's what we did.

The tech replaced all the crank bearings with what he could get, meaning the 3 with the collars no longer have collars. He also left off the slingers (#17) which I assume was because without the collar in the bearing pressing against them, they wouldn't stay in place, but I don't know that for sure. I didn't realize those would be left off, actually, until the crank arrived today.

The tech said they have done this before, and that the owners switched to premix. I (now) see stuff here indicating that premix won't lube the crank bearings, and that seems to make sense given where they are. So it sounds like I'd be using premix and injection. If that isn't already wrong, do I need to alter the premix ratio (since injection will still be happening, too), or do I just follow what's on the bottle?

Thanks again.
Andy