T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

geck0 · Post by **geck0** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:23 pm

Know what we need?

Find a guy that worked in the factory as a mechanic or a engineer or better yet the file clerk back in the day. It all depends on how important this info is to our cause. Has anyone contacted the mother ship (SUZUKI) and ask for info? Im sure there is a cost for going through the red tape. want to try that avenue?

ericsattic · Post by **ericsattic** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:03 pm

oldjapanesebikes wrote:
ericsattic wrote: I got this information from a very reputable source: the now FORMER owner of Badge Replicas (he told me he sold the business but the buyer still operates the same web page).
So - that would be Brian Cutler ?
ericsattic wrote:Anyway, he told me his personal 1968 Cobra has a VIN of 15044 - that is one of the highest numbers we have seen so far.
I've added it - thanks !
ericsattic wrote:Other people I sent messages to have not responded, probably not wanting to publicize their VINs...
Possibly - note that I have somewhat anonymised several of the responses, but each to their own Based on a lead from diamondj for example I've tried to contact Paul Miller several times now to attempt to confirm if he has a 500/5 and if so what the frame number is, but he has studiously ignored me

ericsattic wrote:Finally, I have an official Suzuki letter I should scan and post here - it was published right after the December 1967 Cycle World test of the "Suzuki 500." Interestingly it says they made the following changes to the "500/FIVE" apparently as a DIRECT RESULT OF the road tests made by Cycle World (exact wording):
Please do - appreciated ! On a related topic - the whole 10 fin and 11 fin thing seems to be one of those self perpetuating urban myths may have started with a Cycle World writer who couldn't count.

Lot's of stuff going on in this thread but let me just say that yes, Brian's the man from down under that I corresponded with. I have both purchased and traded parts with him in the past. He has not said to keep his name secret but I try to protect privacy. Interesting factoid is that Brian told me he sold the Badge Replica business in his own words because "I wanted to get back to my 'metier', timber furniture making." (metier = vocation/trade). Having the skills as a furniture craftsman would seem to fit nicely with the skills needed to manage badge and part replication... just substitute the wood with metal! He said he missed interacting with the motorcycle folks but was just simply getting worn out working that hectic business. At any rate he provided me with another Cobra vin from a mate of his (see below). Also, I just remembered I keep a file for the bikes I own and try to print out eBay sales from time to time and file them to track "value" (my "metier" involves the analysis of real estate sales so I am used to this type of thing). Don't know why I did not remember this sooner but the info is listed below - I tried to eliminate repeats of stuff already here but there might be duplicates. Sadly, two things limit my data. First, I thin the files out every few years as the data gets old - shucks! Second, not all the sellers provide the VINs when they sell bikes - shucks again! (note I have just one sale of a 1969 model from 04/10 -but no VIN). I have the actual eBay sales / auctions printed out and filed if anyone has any questions... Also have a stack of other year T500s sale sheets I am getting ready to toss becuase I traded away my 73 T500. Anyway, here is all the additional data in my files, some from eBay, some from other places, may or may not help this project:

1968 Cobra
#10332 - sold 07/11
#10649 - sold 06/11
#10914 - PM sold 04/11
#11025 - listed summer / fall 2010 2+ times
#14271 - from suzukicycles.org site; swedish owner
#14375 - AUS owner, friend of BC

1970 MK-III
#24993 - sold 01/11
#25607 - sold UK 06/10
#26927 - sold AUS non eBay 2010
#29162 - sold 07/10

Lowest VIN from a 1971 T500 sale
#34084 - PM sold 06/10

With regard to the 10-fin jug urban legend. Don't know the truth for all bikes but if one examines the T500's engine in the December 1967 Cycle World magazine (AND also in a widely-circulated "500/Five" sales brochure) - there are 11 cooling fins on both engines. Recall the bulletin I mentioned from Suzuki that I promise to post here that says Suzuki modified the Cobra AFTER / as a result of the Cycle World Test. End of this urban legend?

Now I will rustle up a lesser urban legend = I've read that the T500-II was actually produced during 1969 and into early 1970; production of the T500-III did not begin until Spring 1970. Also heard the Mark III had the lowest production numbers of ANY T500... As we know many bikes are built in the year preceding their model year (e.g., my 1970 H1 was built in October 1969; we know many Cobras must have been built in 1967). So does anyone with a T500-III have an ID plate with a build date before March 1970???

Regards, Eric

diamondj · Post by **diamondj** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:41 pm

ericsattic wrote:(my "metier" involves the analysis of real estate sales so I am used to this type of thing)

End of this urban legend?

Now I will rustle up a lesser urban legend = I've read that the T500-II was actually produced during 1969 and into early 1970; production of the T500-III did not begin until Spring 1970. Also heard the Mark III had the lowest production numbers of ANY T500... As we know many bikes are built in the year preceding their model year (e.g., my 1970 H1 was built in October 1969; we know many Cobras must have been built in 1967). So does anyone with a T500-III have an ID plate with a build date before March 1970???

Regards, Eric

Hey Eric,

Ah, I had wondered why you were so intrigued with tracking production numbers. This makes sense as you have a talent for it.

I would consider the 10 fin legend "put to bed". Of course it could always rise again!

I had always thought it to be the other way around where Suzuki ran the '68 a bit longer (to the end of the year rather than switching to 69 production in the fall as most manufacturers did then. They then built the 69 for less than a full production year before switching to the T500III in the fall of 1969. I base this on a couple of things:

1. Conversations with Paul regarding the various model year T500s and that fact he believed the '69 was the rarest of the model years.

2. Personal observation - I've seen more Cobras (both parts and complete motorcycles) on ebay, then '70 T500 IIIs, with the '69 coming in a distinct third in terms of complete motorcycles and parts bikes.

3. This:

This is a genuine two owner 1970 T500III factory painted in a 1969 color that was posted on Ebay many years ago. The owner lived in the New England area and I believe he was selling because he was being sent overseas in the military. I contacted him when I saw the bike on Ebay to find out more about it and learned he had bought it from the original owner. Further, he swore the paint was original and in as sold condition. I had saved he pictures posted but lost them somewhere in the interim. Muzza had better luck in hanging on to these photos and the rest are posted on his T500 compendium:

http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/t500bikes2.htm

http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/t500bikes.htm

Jim

Zook-e · Post by **Zook-e** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:00 am

I have engine and frame #10553 and it has 11 fins on the jugs.

Post by **oldjapanesebikes** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:32 am

Zook-e wrote:I have engine and frame #10553 and it has 11 fins on the jugs.

And just to confirm - it is a MkI with long swing arm ? Thanks Zook-e.

Jim/ericsattic - the chart is starting to fill in nicely. Still no 500/5's as yet but presumably someone will step forward with one eventually. I'll keep this running for the next while and see where it goes.

For those coming to the party late, the link to the chart I'm maintaining is located here.

Zook-e · Post by **Zook-e** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:02 am

Yes it is a long swingarm.

ericsattic · Post by **ericsattic** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:28 pm

Wow, great photo of the beautiful gold MK-III model above (my MK-III is green). It's obviously very similar to the MK-II in many ways except for the so-called "parcel rack" on the tank and the seat cover. At one point I swear I saw advertisements for the "1970 Suzuki T500" and yet in the photos it was the MK-II bike! Don't think it was a gold MK-III though.

Anyway, I mentioned I had a unique letter from Suzuki and it's included in the photos in the link below. The letter is actually included as an insert to a "reprint" of the classic December 1967 Cycle World test article of the Suzuki 500/Five. Just click on the link below, when the screen opens then click on the photo of the cover in the upper left corner. Once the screen opens, you can toggle through the photos in either direction by clicking on the arrows to the right or left of them. I included some narrative too...

https://picasaweb.google.com/1174857257 ... directlink" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **oldjapanesebikes** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:38 pm

Hmmmm - that link isn't working for me.....

ericsattic · Post by **ericsattic** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:20 pm

oldjapanesebikes wrote:Hmmmm - that link isn't working for me.....

Hmmm is right. Kinda like trying to start a bike without turning the ignition on! Sorry about that all PLEASE click on the link above I had to change the settings to let all view but it's now good to go. Looking forward to some feedback about that reprint and the letter, etc...

ALSO: The 1969 T500 bike in the link below has a frame number of 21903 per the owner (location = Australia). Unfortunately, it falls within the bracket for the 69 numbers we already have but every little bit helps.

http://www.youtube.com/user/clicktoday# ... 5SYqfNmI0k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best Regards, Eric

Post by **oldjapanesebikes** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:56 am

ericsattic wrote:Anyway, I mentioned I had a unique letter from Suzuki and it's included in the photos in the link below. The letter is actually included as an insert to a "reprint" of the classic December 1967 Cycle World test article of the Suzuki 500/Five. Just click on the link below, when the screen opens then click on the photo of the cover in the upper left corner. Once the screen opens, you can toggle through the photos in either direction by clicking on the arrows to the right or left of them. I included some narrative too...

Now that is incredibly cool - thank you for sharing !

ericsattic · Post by **ericsattic** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:32 pm

geck0 wrote:Know what we need?

Find a guy that worked in the factory as a mechanic or a engineer or better yet the file clerk back in the day. It all depends on how important this info is to our cause. Has anyone contacted the mother ship (SUZUKI) and ask for info? Im sure there is a cost for going through the red tape. want to try that avenue?

This suggestion is THE correct way to get the answers we are looking for (production numbers for the Cobra, Mark II, and Mark III). Don't know why I am interested in helping to gather this production information, but now that I am onto it I am onto it. We could all start by trying to speak with some contacts at our local Suzuki dealerships but I have not bought a new bike in decades so I doubt they'd spend much time working with me! I did send an email to Paul Miller but I doubt I will get a response because he's so busy (unless I come up with barn-fresh 500/five with a short swingarm that I want to sell). We could start a new thread "calling all former 60's & 70's Suzuki dealers" on the board - and then ask for suggestions about how to get this information. But I have a feeling this stuff has been searched for before and might not be available. However, still might be worth a shot. In that regard a while back I bought some Suzuki parts from a man in the upper mid west. I believe I kept his name and address because he told me he was a former dealer back in the 70's. I will try to find his address and if I have it I will get started by getting in touch with him.

ericsattic · Post by **ericsattic** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:36 pm

Jim, you make some logical arguments below but the most compelling is #2. Don't think there is anyone who will disagree with you on that. And as I have often said while doing analyses as part of my day-job "sometimes the lack of data is just as important as the presence of data." I myself have wondered quite a bit about the lack of Mark II sales for years so hopefully this informal "project" may lead to some answers. By the way, I will PM you and would like to talk about a couple of other things if you don't mind.

We obviously need to gather lots more data before making conclusions. But I have a couple of preliminary observations to pass on relating to the chart by Ian / "oldjapanesebikes." First, great job and keep it going Ian! Next, I believe we have to correct the lowest 68 T500 frame number that was gathered from board member "cyclebuster" (change it from 00204 to 10204 - see cyclebuster's posts on that by simply searching the board for "10204"). Based on that we have data so far that suggests over 5,000 cobras were produced but how many more we do not know. Ironically, just a few years ago I heard another urban legend that 16,000 Cobras were produced... did anyone else hear that? I am positive about this and balked at that figure, but people swore by it - based on frame numbers!!! I am now thinking that legend is based on an incorrect reading of frame numbers for Cobras. The frames may have gone from 10001 to about 16000 but that would mean 6,000 Cobras were produced - NOT 16,000. I could be wrong but to me 6,000 -7,000 Cobras being produced in 68 appears to seem reasonable when considering this indisputable fact: there were just about 6,300 1969 Kawasaki H1's produced; they were HOT sellers and at about the same price as a T500. So, I actually agree with Ian's chart where it says the Mark II frames could go as low as (or start at) about 16000. We just need to find proof of that by getting low number Mark II bikes... Right now we have a BIG 5,000 bike "gap" between our highest Cobra (15044) and lowest Mark II (20064).

IF (BIG if) we find out that Mark IIs have frame numbers as low as 16000 or 17000 then when looking at Ian's chart it would appear that about 8-9,000 Mark II bikes could have been produced because the lowest Mark III we gathered so far has a frame of about 24993. Then, based on the chart the highest Mark III could have been at about 30,000 and if so that would put Mark III production levels at about 6,000 or 7,000. Obviously, we have a long way to go on this and much of what I have said is guesswork, but some patterns are beginning to emerge.

PS that gold T500-III below looks real nice; they must have had some extra gold paint left over from the T500-IIs. My T500-III is the "interesting" morro green / aka candy lime green #164 paint; quite obnoxious and certainly not as eye-pleasing as that gold or the more common blue T500-III. What's interesting about the gold T500-III is that a similar situation happened with the 1972 Kawasaki H2: officially the 72 H2 was blue but a limited number were painted gold at the end of 72, one of the two standard colors of the 1973 H2A.

diamondj wrote:
Hey Eric,

Ah, I had wondered why you were so intrigued with tracking production numbers. This makes sense as you have a talent for it.

I would consider the 10 fin legend "put to bed". Of course it could always rise again!

I had always thought it to be the other way around where Suzuki ran the '68 a bit longer (to the end of the year rather than switching to 69 production in the fall as most manufacturers did then. They then built the 69 for less than a full production year before switching to the T500III in the fall of 1969. I base this on a couple of things:

1. Conversations with Paul regarding the various model year T500s and that fact he believed the '69 was the rarest of the model years.

2. Personal observation - I've seen more Cobras (both parts and complete motorcycles) on ebay, then '70 T500 IIIs, with the '69 coming in a distinct third in terms of complete motorcycles and parts bikes.

3. This:

This is a genuine two owner 1970 T500III factory painted in a 1969 color that was posted on Ebay many years ago. The owner lived in the New England area and I believe he was selling because he was being sent overseas in the military. I contacted him when I saw the bike on Ebay to find out more about it and learned he had bought it from the original owner. Further, he swore the paint was original and in as sold condition. I had saved he pictures posted but lost them somewhere in the interim. Muzza had better luck in hanging on to these photos and the rest are posted on his T500 compendium:

http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/t500bikes2.htm

http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/t500bikes.htm

Jim

argo1974 · Post by **argo1974** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:27 am

I recently purchased 68" Cobra off another board member.
The bike has matching numbers, VIN 12351 frame/engine.
According to wheel codes (8A), this Cobra was produced in Jan. 1968.

ericsattic · Post by **ericsattic** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:52 pm

Argo my friend from way over in ESTONIA, thank you for responding to my private message. I just love photos of your bike with that wonderful seat and white (playboy bunny?) logo on the oil tank. Pure 60's vintage! Maybee someone should reproduce that seat for others to buy! Thanks especially for the information relating to the wheel rim codes and manufacturing dates. For those who have access to their Takasago rim codes, here is an additional explanation of them from the Kawasaki Triples web page

http://www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/tips/rimcodes.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have sent out other emails and PMs to T500 owners around the world so hopefully the Frame numbers will continue to come in. I will also post or "bump" existing threads on this topic on other boards I am aware of. Not sure, but seems this thread on this board may be the primary one as this board is exclusive to Suzukis.

diamondj · Post by **diamondj** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:52 pm

ericsattic wrote:For those who have access to their Takasago rim codes, here is an additional explanation of them from the Kawasaki Triples web page

http://www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/tips/rimcodes.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting! I need to wander around Mr. Axl's pages more often. I know they are there but I forget how useful they are.

Obviously our Suzukis are minus the last three digits that denote the Kawasaki model. But the two digit year and month code seem to be valid on Suzuki models as well. Here's what I found on my two:

1968 T500 Cobra - front and rear rims both had 8D indicating the rims were made in April 1968. The bikes VIN is 14751. The trouble we have here is we don't know how long these rims sat at Suzuki before being laced up and installed on the T500s. But maybe this will help...

1970 T500 III - VIN 27691. Tag says it was built in April 1970. The rims have date codes 0D on the front and 0E on the back. Or April 1970 and May 1970 respectively.

IF Suzuki was consistent with using the rims when manufactured, then we can assume my 68 was built in April 1968. I'd want a bigger cross section of data before I'd feel 100% comfortable with this date.

I do know Just In Time manufacturing was documented by the Japanese in the 1970's but it may have been in use prior to then?

Very interesting indeed. Although I have Eric to blame as I start crawling around noting rim date codes on T500s now!

Jim

T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers

Re: T500 Frame and Engine Numbers