Suzuki 2 Strokes

I know there have been threads here in the past about people working on 1000cc kits for the GT. Does anyone know where ones of these kits could be found? Is anyone currently working on one?

I know that Ocelot made a 850 kit way back when but i really think pushing the bores out to 1000cc would make the transfers that are already not the best even smaller .

The only one I know actively working a 1000 cc setup for the GT is Brett DeStoop from AU. I think a friend of his posts his stuff under the screen name Shannon but Im not 100% sure of that. Brett cast his own block and I bet it was one-off. I think his mule test cylinder produced around 68 hp during development (based upon an article I read).

Dave is absolutely right about Ocelot but the business was sold years ago. I contact the guy that bought it but not sure there is anything left. Currently, a 749.5 cc GT750 can get above 127 RWHP (approx. 146 BHP) which exceeds Ocelots 850 cc performance of 130 BHP (at the crank) from back in the 70s. Mostly due to better ignition and pipe designs.

I dont know anyone making a 1000 cc kit. Brett is probably the only guy in the world actively working a 1000 cc GT motor.

Heres some additional information. Check and see how current it might be.
http://2stroker.createforumhosting.com/ ... hp?p=23292

here is the guy that bought up the some of the last bits of the Ocelot components. I suspect he sold much of it off on ebay but I never saw it pop up. I dont know how to contact this guy but maybe some detective work and a phone call or email might get you to him in the event he still has some Ocelot blocks and pistons. http://www.motorcycleforums.net/forum/c ... ffalo.html

....a quick google search under his ebay name found this...http://s245.photobucket.com/albums/gg79 ... bo/ocelot/ you might want to try and locate this guy and see what he has left.

BTW, I had been assuming you asked the question to create a one-off bike to race.....was there a different reason you were asking about 1000cc kits?

Sorry for the delay, I just got back from Vegas.

Thanks for the links, some I have seen and some not.

I am still working on a stocker to race is spring, but my reason for asking is I think it would make a cool winter project. I have some local Busa guys I would like to pick on in 3 poles.

Dave, based upon my experience, with stock pistons, you can take those Busas in 1/8th mile. Shortly after that, they will go past you like you we're stuck in second gear but they will be amazed you were in front at all. I really like your idea to pursue a big bore GT. SuzukiDave is right though... You might run out of transfers unless you have something up your sleeve (so to speak).

I see you sold the orange bike. Really looked nice!

I guess I will keep working on the stocker, I'm afraid it is in need of crank seals. I wish the rules would allow a little increase in wheel base, I would like to add a longer swingarm and maybe 4 degrees in the rake.

I still have the orange 76, it would make someone a nice all original rider. Hint

The rules allow for almost any changes you can think of, but that moves it into different classes.

Back to the 1000cc idea fro a moment, there are two ways to get there - bore and stroke. It should be possible to offset bore the crank pin holes in all six crank wheels and sleeve them to increase the stroke. You would have to measure clearance for the big end and I suspect that the cases would need to be trenched for clearance. That's OK but the cases are pretty thin and flexy so you don't want to go too far.

Stock liners are cast in place and have a locating rib around the top and bottom to hold them in place. They can be bored to 72mm without much drama and much more than that requires the whole liner be bored out and a new liner made and inserted. LA Sleeve in Cali or Superior Sleeve in OR or maybe the guys in Ohio, whose name I forget, could make sleeves with your port shapes & sizes.

If you really wanted to go the whole way, add reeds and use aluminum liners and get them nicasil plated by Millenium for better heat transfer. The two large capacity motors I know of are the German one with a bazillion hours of welding and machining for reeds and power valves, and Brett who designed a replacement barrel and had it cast and machined it to match his much modified crankcases.

I have not built a large motor, but just out of curiosity, I took the TR750 data in MOTA and increased the bore 2mm at a time and ran the simulator. I did not change port shapes or sizes. Just the bore. As expected, the peak revs dropped with each increase as the engine ran out of breath earlier and earlier. For example at 70mm it peaked at 8250 and at 76mm it peaked at 8250 and dropped fast after that. What also happened was that the whole power curve tilted upwards making more power through the range.

What would happen in the real world may be a little different and I would expect clutches to shatter and rods to break at those revs with big heavy pistons stretching them. There are a few Snowmobile rods that could be used to make a strong big engine, but I need to win the lottery first.

Brett's bike hit over 200MPH and makes over 200hp I would guess - maybe more.

Anything is possible - all it takes is time, talent and treasure.

With an increase in stroke, you would also need to either. A have a shorter rod (not the direction to go with a race engine) or B have a piston with a shorter deck height, for everything to work. And wouldn't the stroke change effect the port timimg?

When you used the simulator and increased the engine size, with no changes to the induction or exhaust it lowered the peak power points just as I would expect. If you were to improve the breathing in and out as well, I would say the power should improve along with a higher peak power rpm. That said, every engine I have ever made larger performed stronger, with additional mods or not.

I only ran the simulator for larger bores. Changing stroke gets more complicated, but I could hold port timing static and let it work out where to add or subtract metal. Spacers or welding versus machining. That's just work (and cash )

As for improving breathing, I stared with a modified TR750 base with large carbs and trick exhaust. All I was doing was changing one variable to illustrate the point. The question though is what finally is the barrier to further power? What is the limiting design aspect? I can enter totally mythical data to identify those points and at some time you run out of transfers and sleeve area. Ports can't bee too wide or else they swallow rings and so on. There's a limit to everything.

Long rods are nice and have some advantages but that's not the only way to go. I looked at the Polaris XCR800 triple (and others) a while ago and it can make 200HP without too much work. OK so it is with a lot of work, but nothing compared to what we need to do to get there. It has a 1mm longer stroke than a GT but shorter rod and lower piston crown. Other rods are available to an adventurous engine builder. That Polaris rod is also twice as thick in the beam as a GT rod and probably twice as strong. Lots of variables to play with.

The XCR cannot just be duplicated onto a GT core, but that's not to say we can't learn from its design.

For a race engine anything is possible, it's just a case of how fast can you afford to go. For a high torque street motor, there are different compromises to be made. 444MM carbs and 6" diameter exhausts are not very practical for cruising down to the coffee shop

For a race motor - how much HP do you want. Kevin told us his numbers and that's pretty impressive for a relatively conventional approach. If I wanted to beat Kevin in the same class, I'd go to the gym to lose just enough weight, contact his engine builder/tuner and build an even lighter stock looking bike with less steel in it. Then I'd have to find someone who rides better than I do, but let's not go there.

Looks like the 1000cc thing is just a dream at this point, If I were younger and more serious about racing like I once was, very little would slow me down from my goals. At this point I just think it would be cool to put something together to have some street fun with.

I have no intentions on competing with Kevin (I would be happy to help him in any way that I can though), for now I will focus on assembling a decent stocker to play and have fun with.

I believe this is a stock block opened up to take a 1000cc sleeve

Old School wrote:................ for now I will focus on assembling a decent stocker to play and have fun with.

That sounds like a plan.

If I wanted to beat Kevin in the same class, I'd go to the gym to lose just enough weight, contact his engine builder/tuner and build an even lighter stock looking bike with less steel in it. Then I'd have to find someone who rides better than I do, but let's not go there.

R, in theory......however, there is a bit more to it than that! Doug Flannery built four (4) nearly identical GT750 race motors and at this point, all four have been down the track. Three of them are still here in the U.S. But for comparison purposes, Dave Derrick's GT750 weighs about 60 lbs less than mine and is much lower to the ground. Dave is a considerably better drag racer than me as evidenced by his National Record of 9.22 and 139 MPH on his H2....plus, he weighs a bit less than me. What Im driving at is that each of us have set our bikes up differently and we launch them differently. We run different fuel and time them differently. There's chassis setup, clutch setup, tire pressure and wheelie bar adjustments. Shift-points down the track ...1st to 2nd and 4th to 5th are not that simple to get right on a GT transmission. But the human factor makes all this the most interesting. Launch skill as well as knowing how to adjust setup due to changing conditions (air as well as track) can make all the difference. To your point, there's no doubt that sooner or later, Dave Derrick will eventually win the battle of the GT dragbikes.....but Im going to hold that day off as long as possible!

Thats what makes all this so exciting...there's a lot to it!

Absolutely Kevin. I was glibly indicating that it take more than just desire and HP to win in a drag race. There are a truck load of variables as you indicated.

On engine size, if I understood the classes correctly,
FF 490-738cc Stock 70.0mm bore
EE 740-779 70.5 - 71.5mm
DD 780-809 72.0 - 73.0
CC 810cc up 73.5 up

My simple interpretation of chassis classes is:

S Stock or close to it in most ways.
M Modified - struts and longer swingarm
A Altered - Raked head, solid rear end
D Dragster - laydown frame

Then there are a few Gas classes, so I assume that any fuel is game in the ones above including Alky, Nitrous, Nitro methane, rocket fuel etc..