T500 Expansion Chambers - Street rider

[Fritz500]

I have found a lot on interesting discussions on expansion chambers for the GT750 but not much on the T500.

I have made a few inquiries about costs & shipping but I think now should have first found out what the preferred pipes are, and why.

I have a few criteria:

• must have decent mufflers - the local police are "enthusiastic"
• like to have them in stainless steel as I've had painted and chrome chambers before, and well...
• street tuned preferred as I'm over riding like I used to...

Any comments appreciated.

Thanks

[ctluba]

I had my pipes made by Jemco in Texas. They were 600 delivered, that was three pipes for GT550. I think they offer pipes for a T500 for around 400 delivered. I may be wrong, but I dont think you are going to find brand new pipes for any cheaper than that. Jemco has a web site. The site is not very high speed, but it has pics and prices. I sent the guy a money order and they made the pipes and I received them in about 2 weeks. They have been making pipes for like 40 years if not more.

As far as the finish on the pipes, I left mine in the raw. When they arrived at my house they looked like works of art!!!!!!!!!!! I couldnt bring myself to coat such beautiful things with paint or anything else. After each ride I wipe them down with a nice thin coat of gun oil. They look great and no rust!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Here is the link http://www.jemcoexhaust.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jabcb]

Two other interesting options are nickel plating & ceramic coating.

Of what I understand ceramic coating is similar to powder coating, but powder coating is used in low temperature applications like frames & ceramic coating is used on engine parts & exhausts.

[Suzukidave]

I havent tried it myself as i havent had the raw finish chambers to try it on .. but , the Kawasaki triple guys say a couple of coats of a floor wax call Mop n Glo will keep em from rusting up and then a fresh coat now and then to keep it on them .

[tz375]

Titan in the UK make stainless pipes but they seem to suggest that performance may actually not be as good as stock - at least that was the inference.

Jemco pipes make good power and are not too bad from a noise perspective. I haven't done a noise check but I was pleasantly surprised. You could also ask Jon Easton if he could make a set in Stainless.

Dave Higgs makes stainless pipes in the UK but the noise is not to everyone's taste.

Swarbrick, again in the UK, make great pipes with removable mufflers and they are quite quiet. I don't know if Dave Swarbrick would make a set in Stainless though.

In Australia you have Ron Tingate that can make anything out of anything and Pete Gibson who designed and made a gazillion Allspeed pipes over his time.

Staintune, another Aussie company makes stainless replacement mufflers and it might be possible to convince them to make a set for you.

Gary at Spec 11 makes great pipes for RD/RZ Yamahas, that make good power and are quiet, but I don't know if he'd make a set in stainless or for that bike. Worth asking though.

Or I suppose you could design a set and have a local welder weld them up if you get the cones rolled. That way you can get decent TZMike mufflers or get perforated tube in the size you want. Andrew Walms could roll the cones and several people could design the pipes.

PEDRO deals mainly with race bikes, but he is probably the best guy to ask or Eric K (zookie) has built a lot of twins in the US may have other ideas.

[TLRam1]

Titan in the UK make stainless pipes but they seem to suggest that performance may actually not be as good as stock - at least that was the inference.

Jemco pipes make good power and are not too bad from a noise perspective. I haven't done a noise check but I was pleasantly surprised. You could also ask Jon Easton if he could make a set in Stainless.

Dave Higgs makes stainless pipes in the UK but the noise is not to everyone's taste.

Swarbrick, again in the UK, make great pipes with removable mufflers and they are quite quiet. I don't know if Dave Swarbrick would make a set in Stainless though.

In Australia you have Ron Tingate that can make anything out of anything and Pete Gibson who designed and made a gazillion Allspeed pipes over his time.

Staintune, another Aussie company makes stainless replacement mufflers and it might be possible to convince them to make a set for you.

Gary at Spec 11 makes great pipes for RD/RZ Yamahas, that make good power and are quiet, but I don't know if he'd make a set in stainless or for that bike. Worth asking though.

Or I suppose you could design a set and have a local welder weld them up if you get the cones rolled. That way you can get decent TZMike mufflers or get perforated tube in the size you want. Andrew Walms could roll the cones and several people could design the pipes.

PEDRO deals mainly with race bikes, but he is probably the best guy to ask or Eric K (zookie) has built a lot of twins in the US may have other ideas.

Richard's given you a great wealth of resourceful information here.

[GreenMachine]

I have found a lot on interesting discussions on expansion chambers for the GT750 but not much on the T500.

I have made a few inquiries about costs & shipping but I think now should have first found out what the preferred pipes are, and why.

I have a few criteria:

• must have decent mufflers - the local police are "enthusiastic"
• like to have them in stainless steel as I've had painted and chrome chambers before, and well...
• street tuned preferred as I'm over riding like I used to...

Any comments appreciated.

Thanks

I can recommend the titan pipes - they are well made, light and look great in stainless (mine are flat black, which is good too). They're a bit loud, certainly louder than stock but nowhere near the volume of an Akrapovic on a Fireblade or something. They can be wrapped with extra baffle wadding to tone them down as well. The cops around here are pretty savage as well, but I'm not concerned at the level of noise the titans make.

There's been speculation about the power they make but I seriously doubt it's less than stock - I weigh 100kgs and it'll do a ton with me aboard. It seems to fuel nicely as well, with 105 main jets but otherwise no carb changes. I intend to dyno my bike soon with stock pipes and chambers to put some data in to that discussion.

When I was researching pipes, Jemco didn't seem too interested in shipping to Oz, but you might find them different now.

[CumbriaSuzuki]

ctluba,

That's one fine looking GT550.
What bike/s did that front end and swinging arm come off?

[Fritz500]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Let's keep them rolling in.

Cheers

[ctluba]

ctluba,

That's one fine looking GT550.
What bike/s did that front end and swinging arm come off?

The front end is off a gsxr 750. The rear end is a SV650. I have a thread in this tuning and peformance forum with all the details.

[titan performance]

This is turning into an interesting thread Fritz, and I would like to chime in while we have 2 of the forum's experts, (Pedro and TZ), both participating.
TZ has listed a host of pipe builders in his earlier post, but it seems to me that no pipe builders commit themselves to predicting the increase in horse power that can be expected with the addition of their pipes. Lets assume that a large percentage of the buyers of the pipes are fitting them to stock, road going 500's with no other mods whatsoever.....a bike rated at about 47 bhp by Suzuki 35+ years ago.....so what can we expect to see on the dyno with the addition of pipes alone?

[titan performance]

Thanks for your reply Pete.....you have said pretty much what I had anticipated, but I wanted to hear it from one of you guys with much more knowledge and experience than I have. It has allways struck me, that the thousands of chambers sold to guys over the years for use on road bikes, were little more than a "generic pipe". I got a little barracking in another thread for saying that most of us road bike riders will be happy if it looks good, and sounds good, and doesn't perform any worse than it did, and I still believe that a lot of road riders share that sentiment. As you rightly say, manufacturers are reluctant to post up figures, as there is no guarantee they can be achieved on another machine. As I understand the principal of the expansion chamber, it will provde optimum power when matched to the port timing of the motor, but even this can be varied to make that power at different areas of the rev range by altering pipe dimensions.
Over the years, I have bought a number of sets of pipes from varying manufacturers, but never ever been asked what state of tune my bike was, or what power charateristics I was hoping to achieve. I did once buy a set for a 500 that sounded like a chain saw on steroids, and reduced the top speed to 85 mph.
I guess the point I am making, is that expansions on road bikes, are, unlike for the track, little more than an accessory in the majority of cases. Realistically only likely to give a single figure horse power gain, which doesn't make a whole lot of difference on the road. The change in sound probably gives more of the sensation of speed than the actual horse power gain does.
I fully realise that my thoughts are totally contrary to those of you race engine builders, but as I said once before, you are looking for a gain from each mod you make.
That said, our own pipes run very crisp, and side by side testing with stock systems and a bike fitted with another well known chamber, were favourable.
The good news is that we have just secured the use of a dyno on one of our suppliers premises, and it's no more than 2 miles from the work shop..........result !

[tz375]

Pedro made some very valid points as to what could be expected from a street pipe and how he (and others) might design a pipe for the street.

For a street motor I'd be looking to increase the area under the curve with emphasis on low to mid range and not on top end.

While it may be true that for many riders a dyno result or top end HP is not actually what they are after, it does beg the question as to what do pipes achieve. I have tested pipes that made an immediate 18hp gain over stock on a ported motor that I know would have made much less power on a stock motor. I have also tested pipes that lost 20&% of the power at the top end but sounded like it was wailing down Bray Hill at a million revs.

I have only ever seen one dyno test of a set of Allspeeds and they made about 4hp more than stock on that bike IIRC. but it lost a ton of weight so it probably worked better overall than stock.

In the litigious society we live in, it seems to me that a pipe seller should be able to claim something like: Our pipes were tested on X date on a stock ABC123 in good overall condition with stock ports. Overall it made an additional 2 pound feet of torque from 5500 to 6500 and was peaked at y rpm. Static noise level measured at 45 degrees using an XYZ meter was 110db at 4500 rpm compared to a stock pipe that made 190db at the same engine speed. At 8500 rpm this pipe made 124 Db which may exceed your local noise level allowance. Our pipes weigh next to nothing - a reduction of 35Kg. Your results depend on teh condition of the motor and how well it is set up by a professional race engineer with NASA level equipment and PhD in Astro Physics. Please ride responsibly.

In other words a manufacturer should be able to tell us what they did without necessarily exposing all their secrets or laundry and should be able to let riders know that if they fang it past a cop station it's their own silly fault if they get pulled.

The only way anyone can make any claims is if they have the facts.

A manufacturer could combine the hype with the small print in any way they want, but it's good to know that Titan will soon test a set of their pipes so they will know what the facts are and will be able to decide on how they tell the story.

[Craig380]

Here's that dyno test of Allspeeds versus stock pipes. It's a pure street bike, with no changes to any other components (airbox / filters / jetting / porting etc), which makes it interesting for this thread.

http://www.thekettleclub.com/bike/allspeed/

Up to 5Krpm, the Allspeeds lost about 3bhp compared with the stock system, although the power curves were similar in shape with no big holes or dips.

When the stock pipes' curve started to flatten off at 5K rpm, the Allspeeds kicked up some and kept rising to give an extra 5bhp at the wheel from 6 - 7Krpm

I guess the loss of 25 pounds in weight and the sound compensates for the low-end losses, then once it comes on the pipe, it's all good ...

[Fritz500]

Here's that dyno test of Allspeeds versus stock pipes. It's a pure street bike, with no changes to any other components (airbox / filters / jetting / porting etc), which makes it interesting for this thread.

At long last some hard technical information flies into view! Love it.