dyno time

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tz375
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dyno time

Post by tz375 »

I took a few hours yesterday afternoon to try out the first few combinations. It was really cold outside so we had the large doors closed and even with a huge fan drawing air out of a regular door, the room was soon full of smoke. I must recommend that he gets an exhaust fan - for the exhausts. Inside temps were close to standard 59 degrees, 7% humidity, 29.33 in-Hg.

Timing was around 20 degrees just to play safe and plugs were Iridium 9s to make sure they did not overheat, and ignition is a custom DYNA S with stock coils. Fuel was 93 Octane from a normal pump at a gas station on the way to the dyno shop.

Started with stock pipes which smoked a lot for quite a while until the motor was run under load and got the pipes hot enough to burn clean. After that they were fine - only the slightest smoke. The motor is higher compression that stock, mildly ported A block and uses stock carbs with UNI filters. Main jets were raised one size from stock and the rest of the BS40 CV carbs were stock. Just to get a baseline.

It's hard to get an accurate Air:Fuel reading on two strokes when the baffle is stock because the probe doesn't go in far enough and air gets into the back of the pipe. Sounds odd, but it does. The right pipes stayed very cool and the center one was way hotter than the left for some reason. Exhausts had the crossovers (L pipes) in and repacked cleaned baffles (one was new) and all had new clean packing.

A:F was terrible - very lean overall though teh right side showed almost normal and the left showed way lean. Jets were new, At least that's what the system was telling us. Plugs showed clean to slightly rich on the left and way rich on the right, so who knows what was going on with the mixture. I'll have to pull all three plugs and strip the carbs for a post mortem exam to see if we can determine what was going on there.

Baseline with no fine tuning or jet changes was around 58 RWHP with 51 Lb Feet of torque.

Next up were a set of Jemco pipes I borrowed from SuzukiDave and Kevin the Hatchet. The port mods worked well with those pipes and lets just say that they are really good pipes. HP is no where close to the levels that they made on Kevin's drag race bike, but they didn't lose much to teh stock pipes at the bottom end with this set up. We kept revs down in deference to teh fresh tight motor but they made a significant improvement. I'd recommend those pipes.

Very little smoke from the Jemcos which came from a race bike and were clean. Air: fuel appeared to be better than stock pipes but still showing lean on teh gas analyzer.

Next up was the Strader 3 into 1. That thing sounded unreal and smoked more than than our local council's mosquito fogger. Seriously bad from accumulated oil in the carbon inside the pipe. That pipe came with a stock A model I rebuilt a few years ago. the owner/seller said he used stock jetting and he thought it perked up the bike at the bottom end and was similar to stock higher up.

Dyno results confirm a similar curve to stock but lower at the top end and with so much less weight, it explains the performance. Air:Fuel on that pipe was showing much closer to correct which was a surprise given how short the available tailpipe access was.

We ran out of time and money to try much more other than an ignition swing and adding more advance made surprising little difference - within the margin of error.

Now I need to work out what's going on with those carbs. and see if I can fit the set of 34mm flatslides that are lying here gathering dust.

This stuff is addictive. I need to win the lottery so I can spend more time on the dyno checking out a few ideas and a thousand and one other combinations.

For the street I'll be happy to use the Strader and if I'm silly enough to take it to the track I'll need to keep those Jemco's - Sorry Dave.... :roll: :oops: :? :shock:
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Re: dyno time

Post by Herman T »

Richard, Bring the Strader for the races. Being bracket racing, it doesn't matter how fast you go. You and I could have the best sounding GT750 race ever run. :) Listen to the music coming from this awesome machine. Fantastic!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suJJT_qJZR4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
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tz375
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Re: dyno time

Post by tz375 »

I borrowed a still camera and used it to grab a couple of poor quality videos.

Fogging

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... X2WuCIG3Q8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Once it was warm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJNrVqKL ... er&list=UL" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Madbuffalo
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Re: dyno time

Post by Madbuffalo »

Hats off to you for doing the Dyno runs Richard, I'm sure they weren't cheap. :clap: Man that Strader sounded great. Nice to hear actual comparisons on those pipes too, although I trust you have a good reason for keeping us in suspense on those Jemco/Strader numbers...?
No really... it's supposed to smoke.

1974 Suzuki Nomad 340
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tz375
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Re: dyno time

Post by tz375 »

Numbers can be misleading and at the moment I'm not sure what some of them mean and why they came out the way they did. For example the air:fuel numbers look lean but the plugs look rich, and one plug looks richer than the others.

The plug colors are consistent with exhaust pipe temps. The right one never got very hot at all, but it seemed to be running. I have the carbs stripped and have found nothing wrong yet. I need to check the air passages next to see if they flow the same and I haven't worked out how to do that yet.

The main jets are all new so that can't be the problem so I suspect the issue comes from the needle jet or the slow speed jet circuits and that's what I need to check next.

Of course I also have to keep in mind that sometimes a bike wants a smaller or larger jet in one side just because there are minor differences in manufacturing tolerances.

The other thing to keep in mind is that plug appearance is not just about fuel. It's also a function of timing. It could be that the retarded timing and cold plugs caused the plugs to run cool and not burn off deposits. To test that theory I need to try with a set of B8 plugs and go back to stock timing and examine the plugs. If they are burned cleaner because of higher tip temperatures, then I'll know why there's that apparent discrepancy and can adjust accordingly.

The most interesting thing was that with stock pipes, it was quiet but it had a nice sound - remarkably nice in fact. And with stock pipes and Uni filters we had the most lean A:F numbers. I'd like to try that again with Z-6 needle jets and see if that cleans it up or takes it too rich. The implication of those numbers is that it would be likely to seize using that combo on the street if the numbers are correct.

That's why I need to understand what is happening and why.

Anyone got a spare fortune that they are not using? :lol: :wink:
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Re: dyno time

Post by two-stroke-brit »

hey richard , great videos, ,dyno testing isnt cheap is it.
cheers mark :up:
She will never be pretty but hoping she will be a fun ride.

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Re: dyno time

Post by Madbuffalo »

It's easy to see how a man could go crazy (AND BROKE) trying to isolate and solve the minor differences of each cylinder. At some point you're just gonna have to say it's close enough and go enjoy your bike.

Since you said the pipe temp seems to be related to the mixture, at least going by the plug colors, is there a way to use the pipe temps as a indicator to get it close? Then when you think it's about right retest on the Dyno?

Let me know when you find that fortune of yours and do another run on the Dyno, I'd like to find out how my Higgsys actually compare to Jemcos, or maybe I don't. :)
No really... it's supposed to smoke.

1974 Suzuki Nomad 340
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tz375
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Re: dyno time

Post by tz375 »

The reality is that there all parts are manufactured to certain tolerances - maybe say plus or minus 0.01mm or whatever, and that means that each jet will be slightly different, each piston and piston ring will be slightly different etc. Over time, jets get cleaned with bits of wire and so on and others collect a layer of grime that changes their dimensions slightly and it all adds up.

Old bikes were made on the machine tools of the time and are nowhere close to being as repeatable as modern vehicles. All we can do is to get them close enough and what's really amazing is how well things run when they are miles out of adjustment and usually we don't notice the gradual deterioration in performance.

So I took a few hours today and measured all the jets and needles in those carbs and spares as well to get sufficient data to determine what was happening. Pilot jets are hard to measure but there were some minor differences in those - more so that the standard deviation among all jets. I did have a set of Keyster jets and they were slightly less consistent than genuine Mikuni jets. Of three #47.5s, one was closer to the size of a #45 and one was close to $50.

That's not enough to cause the issue we saw on the dyno, but it's a good reminder to use only Genuine Mikuni jets.

On this set of carbs the issues turned out to be simple and easy to fix.

Air jet
The main air jet is a tiny brass pressed in affair with a 0.5mm hole in it. On the right carb there was a tiny white blob of corrosion blocking that air jet. The carbs had been completely reworked and that was clear at the time but that was a couple of years ago and condensation in the garage created a drop of water that sat there and caused a problem. A good reminder to ride the thing more.

It could also have come from the fuel which of course contains ethanol. There is already evidence in the float bowls of moisture.

Choke
The choke lever rotates a long rod with three sets of fingers that lift the choke plungers. On this rack of carbs, the right one was dragging slightly on the plunger and the choke plunger appears to have been just cracked off its seat. A quick tweak and it's clear and the choke is now much smoother.

Simple to fix, a pain to find and now back to the dyno results.

If the right carb was running "less lean" than the others and that has been corrected (we hope), what jets do they all now need and how much extra advance can we add to clean up the plugs? That will have to wait now until we get another warm day to work that through. Now, where is that lottery ticket? I need to check the numbers :wink:
Last edited by tz375 on Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tz375
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Re: dyno time

Post by tz375 »

Madbuffalo wrote: Let me know when you find that fortune of yours and do another run on the Dyno, I'd like to find out how my Higgsys actually compare to Jemcos, or maybe I don't. :)
There is no way to compare the results from one dyno to another, despite what Dynojet may claim. And my bike is set up differently to yours, so that's all a bit of a moot point. I could test your pipes on my bike I suppose or "my" pipes on your bike to see the differences back to back.

Does Higgsy publish a dyno chart with his pipes or have you already had your on a dyno to get the jetting set?

And do you remember where the jetting ended up on yours?

Now where did I put those flatslide carbs? :roll: :? :lol:
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Re: dyno time

Post by Madbuffalo »

Agreed it would definately need to be done on your bike to get comparable numbers, also since I'd hate to subject MY bike to that kind of abuse. :wink: Still if you'd be interested in running your bike with another set of chambers for comparison sake I might be able to make the drive, You're only one state away after all.

I didn't use a Dyno to set up my jetting after installing the Higgspeeds. I did do a lot of trial and error with mains, pilots, air screws and needle settings. After a lot of experimentation I actually found that going up from 110 to 117.5 on the mains and keeping everything else stock worked best. Keeping the pilot system stock seems to go contrary to logic, since the Higgspeeds should increase air flow, but even going up one size on the pilots caused a slight bogging/flooding effect when cruising at low throttle opening. Like you said our bikes are probably quite a bit different at this point anyway, Mine's basically all stock except the chambers.
tz375 wrote:Now where did I put those flatslide carbs? :roll: :? :lol:
It's amazing how much carburetors have changed over the years. The other weekend I was working on my snowmobile and felt like I had to learn carburetors all over again. It had all kinds of neat new doodads like rubber float valve seats and a magnetic slide sensor that actually drains the bowls if the throttle sticks open. Stupid space carburetor in my opinion. :lol:
No really... it's supposed to smoke.

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tz375
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Re: dyno time

Post by tz375 »

My guy was really gentle on the bike. There's a school of thought that says bang the throttle against the stop and hold it there until the rev limiter kicks in. Brian was way more gentle and rolled on the throttle and if anything he shut off early.

It would be interesting to compare Higgs pipes with Jemcos to see what the difference is in performance.

A dyno is just another tool and in the real world the best way to jet a bike is the way you did it - by feel.

117.5 mains and nothing on the needle sounds surprising, but with CV carbs the main jet works all through the rev range and the needle effects WOT at lower revs.
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Re: dyno time

Post by Craig380 »

@ MadBuffalo, interesting observation about jetting your chambers for low / mid throttle.

I may be completely wrong, but I believe if you keep the airbox / air filters etc the same on both stock pipes AND chambers, then the volume of air flowing through the carbs can't change too radically, which should mean the jetting for the stock pipes should work also be a decent baseline for chambers. Of course this will vary from bike to bike and from one type of chamber to another.

On my own 380 with Allspeeds (using stock airbox & filters), the bike's actually a little rich up to 2/3 throttle with stock jetting (this can be mostly dialled out using the pilot screw) and works well at the top end.

The butt dyno says it's got a few more BHP, as it will happily pull 6th against a headwind or up a gradient, which a stock 380 will not do :)
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