TS400 alive and kicking

Triplerocky · Post by **Triplerocky** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:56 pm

Finally got my Apache on the road, there is a problem yet.... it seems to be VERY rich from idle to full throttle, I was been able to change main jet to #115, pilot jet to #25 and jet needle at the highest spot just to keep the smoke courtain to a reasonable level, float is as per spec. Only pieces not changed yet are needle jet and jet needle, plug is still dry black and the bike runs rough under 3000 rpm. Any idea?

rngdng · Post by **rngdng** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:35 pm

Rocky, I'd guess that the air jets are still not as clear as possible, and maybe the oil pump isn't adjusted correctly.

I had that carb on mine, but changed it for a normal 34mm (or is it 32??) VM. I still have it, minus jets. If you want another, we can work something out...... cheap.

Lane

GT Tim · Post by **GT Tim** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:12 pm

First idea I had was to put that bike on a boat and sent it to Pennsylvania.

It is obviously not running at the correct altitude...I'll correct that for you.

Triplerocky · Post by **Triplerocky** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:47 am

Lane, thank for the offer.... right now PM to you;
Tim, 1000 ft on the sea level isn't too high but..... 5 miles from the seaside is a pleasure, then no need to bring "Geronimo" to you, thanks anyway

Buffalo-guy · Post by **Buffalo-guy** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:32 pm

What year is your 400. I have jetting info for early and later 400's, and they are considerably different. Maybe there is something in that. I hate to ask the obvious, but is the air filter and air box free of obstructions? Outside of jetting issues, that is one seriously nice Apache!! Cheers.
Fred

frappy · Post by **frappy** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:09 pm

Did you change anything inside the engine, such as piston or porting?

As Lane said, definitely need to make sure all those little ports are clear.

Faboulous resto work, Rocky. I remember when you got ahold of the machine last year - wasn't she a medium blue color? A very striking in bike in black - good color choice!

Triplerocky · Post by **Triplerocky** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:01 am

First,I want to thanks Lane for the efforts he made supplying me with a FREE genuine carb and buying for me various jets, needle, etc. for my TS400B, 1977.
When finally I got the Mikuni needle jets in P-0 and P-2 size, cause the original P-1 is NLA and a Suzuki particular item size, I realized what is wrong.....the mythological Previous Owner BORED THE NEEDLE JET, keeping the altough in very good condition, original jet needle; go figure how the poor engine would responds to this butchery.
After some trials and tribulations,I found out that the better combination seems to be: P-2 needle jet and 5F22 (3^ notch) genuine jet needle, #27,5 pilot jet and #185 main jet (large hex, again, thanks to Lane who addressed me to the difference between hex and round jets), float at 27 mm, needle valve #3,0.
NGKB6ES plug is currently light tan, almost no exhaust smoke, instant starting, no big problem at all; what is still there is the "surging" and little backfires when the throttle is closed after sustained steady speed, I noticed that the defect almost disappears setting the idle screw literally to "zero" and fiddling the air screw to obtain 800-1000 rpm idle; as you can imagine this is possible only when engine is hot and still it isnt' reliable enough.
Frappy and Buffalo, thanks for any informations you can give me and....yes, engine was entirely redone because the PO beast almost put an hole in the piston which is also chewed at the crown circumference, the oil pump was disabled, etc.; so new bearings and seals, cylinder bored 1mm. OS and suitable (heaviest) Wiseco piston and rings (wich seems to be far narrower than original ones), wristpin and caged bearing, cleared and chamfered ports, also the squared transfer divisory entry at cylinder base was worked and matched.
Last question: the piston is VERY noisy, especially you can hear it at idle and, more worrying, after the 5K rpm, where I prudentially cut the gas...at least 'till the counter will hit 1000 km.... piston/cylinder wall play set as per Wiseco/Suzuki instructions: 0,08 mm.; anyway, under the bench I have a complete second top end that includes a genuine Suzuki piston 0,5mm OS.....you know, just in case

(dont' tell to my wife... and I will post pictures of the bike in a kind of local miniature "Grand Canyon")

Buffalo-guy · Post by **Buffalo-guy** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:33 am

Rocky.
It sure sounds like your carburetion issues aren't over yet. It sounds like you may need a larger pilot jet yet, and it might not hurt to go to a B7ES plug and reduce the risk of a hole in your shiny new piston. My jetting info is by way of Roy Bacon's book on Suzuki two strokes, and it only lists to 1976,
so for what it's worth, here is what a 76 TS400 is supposed to have:
Mikuni 32mm, 112.5 main jet, O-9 needle jet, 5F20-3jet needle, 27.5 pilot.
2.5 cut away slide, 27.3mm float height, and 1 1/4turns on the air screw.
The main jet listed is most likely the button style instead of hex. You mentioned that Lane alighted to the differences between the two styles.
I would be interested in hearing his take on that. As always, experiment on the side of caution (richer) to get this sorted out, but it sounds like your a lot closer than you were. Good luck and Cheers.
Fred

rngdng · Post by **rngdng** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:09 pm

The hex jets were due to the needle jets we acquired. As you already know, the needle jets are matched to one style of jet or the other. I don't know if one type is better than the other, but H2Rick's jet comparison chart was a great help in getting Rocky going.

If it's still surging on deceleration, it may have the same problem as the GT750s; to large an air jet.

Lane

Triplerocky · Post by **Triplerocky** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:53 am

Referring to what Lane said, these are the news: altough I knew of the difference in threads between hex and round jets, I have wanted to test by myself

, then I tryed to screw in the genuine #122,5 round main jet that Reiner sold me, into the, fresh from USA, #159 Mikuni needle jet...and, do you belive?, it went inside! Not only the first 2 or 3 threads, I mean all the way down to tighten the brass washer. Are the TS400A/B main jets a further "dedicated" series? Seems they have the same thread of the large hex type, infact I tryed an old spare round jet and it refused to go in other than the very first thread.
Another headscraping for H2Rick and his in progress GT Series encyclopedia

rngdng · Post by **rngdng** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:41 am

Rocky, I noticed that also on mine, but the threads aren't really the same. I don't know why some of them fit like that.

Lane

johnakay · Post by **johnakay** » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:50 am

Rocky my friend can you make the pictures bigger I can't see now't

H2RICK · Post by **H2RICK** » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:18 pm

the piston is VERY noisy, especially you can hear it at idle

Rocky, Wiseco pistons are forged, not cast like the originals, and, yes, they are very noisy (especially at idle) until they warm up and expand. If you want to hear NOISE, just listen to an H2 with Wisecos in it at idle. Now that is SERIOUS noise....even with new pistons/rings !!!

The whole needle jet/jet compatibility thing is s-l-o-w-l-y being sorted out.
The hard thing is to actually get samples of the various TYPES of needle jets to confirm which ones take which style of jet. Mikuni seems to think that such info is a "state secret" or something......on a par with the formula for Coca Cola possibly !!!

Rocky, your P1 original needle jet is which type ??? There is a 3 digit "type number" stamped on the body that identifies which TYPE of needle jet it is e.g 159, 176, 184, etc etc. If you can get me that number then I can try to figure out if there are other bore sizes available in that particular style.

H2RICK · Post by **H2RICK** » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:33 pm

Rocky, everything I have in my crossover book says that all the jets/slides/etc are the SAME in the TS400A and TS400B.....however my book is for the North American market only. Fred's (Buffalo-guy) info from Roy Bacon's book MAY only be valid for the UK area. Italy MAY be different again.
It would be nice if you could go to a Suzuki dealer and see exactly what the parts fiche calls for for your market area.....but you may have already tried that ??

Triplerocky · Post by **Triplerocky** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:54 am

Lane sent me what we think is the narrower choice to the original 188 P-1, Mikuni sells a P-0 and a P-2 for the 188 series, I bought the P-0 and gone with the 122,5 large button main jet as per manual wich states no change for italian market (I have the latest and most complete part list for the TS400, all models).

Now I'm quite satisfied how the bike sounds and runs, altough a bit of surging is still there, the difference between P-1 and P-0 is very small as tz 375 says here, if the Mikuni sequence (P-0, P-2, P-4, etc.) is still the same.

For the piston matter: I sorted out what the noise problem was, the guy who has bored the cylinder decided himself that the right tolerance for a Wiseco piston (or for every other piston, if you ask him) must be 0,15 mm., he simply doubled the standard tolerance of 0,075~080 mm.!!!

This is what I discovered when I got enough noice to reopen the top end, finding the piston badly scored on the intake side, than stuffing easily the 0,15 mm. gauge between cylinder and the poor piston.

Piston was 1 mm OS, so I changed the piston AND the cylinder...and almost made a call to my lawyer just to investigate the butcher for a refund

Now the piston is a genuine suzuki 0,5 mm OS and is way more silent, you can barely hear the bells inside, only when the engine is entering the torque and is very hot; tolerance is in range because when the "artist" bored the cylinder I was there with the gauge in one hand and an impressive sledge hammer in the other

...

Johnny, we all have relevant ages, so why further force the eyes to strive posting small pictures ?