TR500 replica build

Photos and progress of your restorations, even bikes you had but no longer own.

Moderators: oldjapanesebikes, H2RICK, Suzsmokeyallan

Post Reply
petermbooth
On the street
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:52 pm
Country: United States
Suzuki 2-Strokes: X6 T500-III

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by petermbooth »

Hi Chris,
I have inherited your 2-stroke guru Ken Lavallee here in Vermont. A friend gave me a stock '70 T500 and I started working on making it a racer about a year ago. It's been a slow process as I have it in a shop in Essex (6 miles from me in Jericho). I'm currently struggling with firing issues. Last month, the shop where I work on my bike had an open house and sent out a mass email which mentioned my bike. The email made it to Ken's inbox, he came to the open house and we talked for about two hours.
I can't believe that someone with such experience and knowledge building a hot-rodded T500 motor was living 15 miles from me in Colchester.
I just picked up a Dynapower ignition to solve my ignition problems and we'll keep chipping away at it over the coming months. Ken picked up a set of 38 carbs which we'll mount once we get the intake boots. Then a leakdown test. And on and on... I'm really feeling fortunate that Ken found me (and that you were in Colchester to get him interested in T500's originally)

Here's a shot of my bike is it currently sits.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Zunspec4
Expert racer
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:37 am
Country: UK
Suzuki 2-Strokes: T500R, SV1000S, TS125, Seeley T500
Location: Trowbridge UK

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by Zunspec4 »

Hello Peter,

I also play about with a T500 engined race bike, Ken mentioned your bike in a recent PM to me. I have a PowerDynamo race ignition for the T/GT 500 and it has been very reliable and is real easy to set up. Like most electronic ignitions it does need to spin up to a minimum RPM to begin producing the sparks but I can do it myself with a good push start so you should have no problems (much less effort if you have a set of starter rollers though :lol: )

You bike looks to be developing fine, you will have to start your own thread and post some details (like where did you get that tank and front brake).

Cheers Geoff
SpecialK
On the street
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:37 am
Country: USA
Suzuki 2-Strokes: RM100 RM125 RM250 CR250 T500
Location: Vermont

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by SpecialK »

Geoff,
I just wanted to share with you and everyone that we are running a Zeeltronics programmable ignition unit on Chris' bike which is very similar to your HPI unit and has been working out very nicely for us. For our phase 2 multi-port motor, I chose to start with a map which closely resembles what many of the Honda CR250 Superkart guys are running figuring this would be a good place to start (see below) Note: the Y-axis is degrees BTDC. The RPM range of these engines is very similar to what our goal is for our multi-port. Like you, we also plan to migrate from the VM34's to VM38's. When we make the switch, we are going to start off with the factory TR750 jettings and adjust from there as there is very little to no information on TR500 running 38's to be found: Pilot: 45, NJet: R2, Needle: 6DP17-3 (6DP5), Main: 320. Hoping that this setup will get us in the ballpark. We'll let you know what we end up with when we get to that point.
Cheers,
Ken
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Zunspec4
Expert racer
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:37 am
Country: UK
Suzuki 2-Strokes: T500R, SV1000S, TS125, Seeley T500
Location: Trowbridge UK

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by Zunspec4 »

Thanks for that, Ken :up:

I will probably start with less Max advance than that curve when I run the new engine on the dyno for the first time. I was particularly interested in how the drop in advance should be set up and that has given me a good idea on how I should play it. I was not expecting to use quite such a drop in advance to 8000rpm but will definitely start with something similar now.

My HPI unit has the facility to program two curves that can be switched when the engine is running so I will be able to test 2 curves without having to stop and re-program.

I found a handy App on the net which converts degrees BTDC to mm BTDC. For info Stroke 64mm/Rod length 136mm, below is the simple spread sheet I made up for the T/GT 500 ( link: http://www.dansmc.com/mc_software2.htm )

T/GT500
MM BTDC Degrees BTDC

2.0---------18.35
2.1---------18.81
2.2---------19.25
2.3---------19.69
2.4---------20.12
2.5---------20.55
2.6---------20.96
2.7---------21.37
2.8---------21.77
2.9---------22.16
3.0---------22.54
3.1---------22.93
3.2---------23.3
3.3---------23.67
3.4---------24.03
3.5---------24.39
3.6---------24.75
3.7---------25.1

Cheers Geoff
User avatar
Suzukidave
Moto GP
Posts: 3980
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:55 pm
Country: US
Suzuki 2-Strokes: GT750 x2 97 -1200 Bandit 86 GSXR1100
Location: Lancaster Pa.

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by Suzukidave »

I was about to ask how the EGT could be so low then saw it was in C :wth:
the older i get the faster i was
SpecialK
On the street
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:37 am
Country: USA
Suzuki 2-Strokes: RM100 RM125 RM250 CR250 T500
Location: Vermont

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by SpecialK »

Suzukidave,
The data for the EGT that we charted was using a nearly stock (static-like) ignition map for our phase 1 motor which closely resembles the 23 degree BTDC setting that the stock T500's spec'd out which didn't retard as we increased RPM's until after 8300. That coupled with the fact our EGT sensor is mounted in the Ex flange and not the traditional 100-ish mm from the piston face location makes for a lower EGT reading because the pipe will pull fresh (cooler) charge out from the Tx fill initially across the sensor before said charge is forced back into the bore when the Ex port closes due to the pipe return wave. So even if the numbers were converted to F, you would see them lower than the 1100-1200F-ish values that get thrown around. Our decision to place the sensor in the flange was for reliability reasons as we felt it was less prone to breakage/cracking. Using this new ignition map with the rolloff on our new top end, we will see higher EGT values as the ignited charge is now delayed as we go higher in RPM's making that process occur closer to the Ex port. Every motor has it's own personality and as such it's own max EGT. The number is what it is ... you find the peak temp, back off 50-100C from the peak T (ie. jet 1-2 mains richer) and there you go! This changes with air density so you need to make sure you track with that as well! We're learning more every outing. It's been a fun project for sure and I am grateful to Chris for letting me tag along!
Ken
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Suzukidave
Moto GP
Posts: 3980
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:55 pm
Country: US
Suzuki 2-Strokes: GT750 x2 97 -1200 Bandit 86 GSXR1100
Location: Lancaster Pa.

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by Suzukidave »

Interesting stuff for sure :up: it was your low EGT reading that i then saw was in C instead of F that had me wondering as on my GT750 that has the pickup around 8" off the piston does reach very close to 1200 at top end with a stock igy curve .
the older i get the faster i was
User avatar
ChrisK
On the main road
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:16 pm
Country: Australia
Suzuki 2-Strokes: T250, GS550, TL1000S, T500 race, GSXR400 race
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by ChrisK »

petermbooth wrote:Hi Chris,
I have inherited your 2-stroke guru Ken Lavallee here in Vermont. A friend gave me a stock '70 T500 and I started working on making it a racer about a year ago. It's been a slow process as I have it in a shop in Essex (6 miles from me in Jericho). I'm currently struggling with firing issues. Last month, the shop where I work on my bike had an open house and sent out a mass email which mentioned my bike. The email made it to Ken's inbox, he came to the open house and we talked for about two hours.
I can't believe that someone with such experience and knowledge building a hot-rodded T500 motor was living 15 miles from me in Colchester.
I just picked up a Dynapower ignition to solve my ignition problems and we'll keep chipping away at it over the coming months. Ken picked up a set of 38 carbs which we'll mount once we get the intake boots. Then a leakdown test. And on and on... I'm really feeling fortunate that Ken found me (and that you were in Colchester to get him interested in T500's originally)

Here's a shot of my bike is it currently sits.
Well Howdy, Pete! Ken has been telling me that there is another T500 within spitting distance of my old haunt in Colchester and that he has (naturally) got involved with your project. Your bikes looks real pretty, I love the tank and seat, I ended up molding my own as I couldn't find any commercially available that would fit our modified frame.
I've got some of Ken's early design barrels here that I am going to be shipping over to you in the next couple of days along with some brand new Mikuni manifolds (they are for 34's though, not 38's).
Ken is a real 2T enthusiast and I only pretend to understand half of what he comes up with (lol)! Basically I just keep the thing running and ride it. We have made great strides in the last 12 months and I'm really excited to shortly be able to let the beast off the leash with the new 5 port barrels and billet squish heads. It should be run in enough now to do that at the next outing where I am also going to throw on the 38's. At some stage I will put it on a dyno to see what she actually makes.
It's taken a while to get it handling how I like it but I think we are getting closer on that front. In the pipeline we have a Dresda replica box swingarm which should help as well.
Lots more I would love to do, CR box, straight cut primaries, lightened crank, 750 rods and a dry clutch to name a few but money only goes so far so I think we are just about at our final iteration - maybe the crank is doable.
We have some great help along the way with some input from ex Kenny Roberts crew chief Mike Sinclair amongst others. That's pretty cool!
Welcome aboard Team Skippy!

p.s. We may have to share some pics of the new internals with the world soon I think, what do you say Ken?
Zunspec4
Expert racer
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:37 am
Country: UK
Suzuki 2-Strokes: T500R, SV1000S, TS125, Seeley T500
Location: Trowbridge UK

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by Zunspec4 »

Hi Peter,

This is my effort. The engine is not anywhere near the sophistication of Chris and Ken's work but has a race frame and good suspension (Maxton front and rear)

Image

Cheers Geoff
SpecialK
On the street
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:37 am
Country: USA
Suzuki 2-Strokes: RM100 RM125 RM250 CR250 T500
Location: Vermont

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by SpecialK »

Let me start off by saying that the objectives in this project were pretty straight forward: 1) Build a bike that was competitive 2) Introduce the latest 21st century learning into the build that was both allowed by our racing association and practical 3) Just have some fun doing it. The team working on the project is comprised of Chris Kirkby (WA), Allen Cook (WA) and myself Ken Lavallee (USA). So how did I get involved with two guys half way around the world? Chris and his lovely wife moved to the USA for 6 months back in 2014 as his wife was pursuing a medical degree and had the opportunity to study for one semester in the States and ended up rented a house next door to me ... fate works in funny ways. Chris and I quickly found out that we had alot in common. After several pints on several occasions I was invited to join the project so that is the connection. While the Titan has a ton of racing lineage and history, I have to say as a tuner it is a PITA to work on from a motor perspective. Everyone on this forum knows why: rotated Tx ducts, barrels, unique left/right pistons, etc. When comparing 21st century porting methodologies against the half-century plus old Titan design and then try to adapt any/all of them to this project, creates a number of challenges, but don't we all like a good puzzle? So in no particular order here's what we now have: There were a ton of issues with the stock heads. 1) The dome is ancient being hemispherical (no squish band) 2) Any attempt to increase compression with these heads results in the left head cracking (we know, we hosed up two heads). 3) These heads love to ping (deto) when pushed hard. 4) Racing heads for this model are no longer available so we have to design & build what we want. We decided to build a air-cooled head insert which fits within a highly "hogged out" stock Suzuki cast head. We decided to not try and modify the Suzuki head as the cast aluminum is really awful and we did not trust it's integrity to dimensionally changing it. It was a product of the day and we believe derived from melting down framework from a post-WW2 mothballed Mitsubishi Zero. So the "hogged out" cast head now simply acts as a "capture ring" to both secure and register the insert in the proper position. The insert is fabricated from 6061-T6 aluminum. The business end of the head was borrowed from Frits Overmars and Jan Thiel, the Aprilia engine designers responsible for the amazing RS125 GP motor. The final mechanical design was generated from our in-team master machinist Allen Cook. Allen was able to take all of the input and objectives the team came up with and knocked it out of the park! The CCR is 7.1:1.
Next were the barrels. I wanted to go way outside the box on this one and fill the liner with transfer ports. The first order of business was to create a thru the piston boost (C) port. We enlisted Wiseco Pistons here in the States and I worked closely with Tom Davis (design engineer) to get our piston built. The objective was simple in that we wanted a single ring piston with the boost port and made the port as tall as we could. Next was to add the "B" ports to the liner. We originally attempted to do a sleeve replacement but that didn't pan out for reasons I will not get into. So I decided that it was time to port the barrels using the latest porting tools available. After thousands (yes!) of engine simulations using MOTA software (see below), I ended up with a 5-Tx port design along with Ex portlets. Now I know you are all going to saying how did you deal with the rotated Tx ducts and not breakthrough into the stud corridors with your porting tool. I say to that, let's breakthrough and then plug our holes! Here are the special couplings created to deal with sealing the barrel from air leaks (see below). Our expansion chambers were built by Dave Swarbrick to our specifications which we tweaked with the help of MOTA. Our stinger venturi are cartridges which we can change to vary the return wave amplitude ... probably overkill but what the hell, this is suppose to be fun right? So that is what is under our hood. We haven't yet hit the dyno but we do in fact know that this setup after our first track day check out is producing a significant power increase over our phase 1 motor (which BTW we won our class championship with last year) which was only a 3 Tx-port, single Ex port with hemi head design. We are very excited to get this setup sorted and then we can share more specific data with everyone. For those out there who will chime in as experts and pick at our effort, I say that we are just three friends having a good time! Thank you to everyone following our project ... we know it has taken a while to get here but then, do we ever get there?
Cheers,
Ken, Chris & Allen
Team Skippy Racing
Perth, Western Australia (and a small shed in the States)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Zunspec4
Expert racer
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:37 am
Country: UK
Suzuki 2-Strokes: T500R, SV1000S, TS125, Seeley T500
Location: Trowbridge UK

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by Zunspec4 »

Fantastic work in both design and fabrication, Ken :up: :up: :up:

I await with expectation to hear how it performs on track with the 38mm carbs. Chris is going to have a fun time. Of course I also want to see how my engine stacks up against what you have been doing, although mine is much more conventional in tuning. When are you going to add reed induction and power valves :D .

Cheers Geoff

(PS: Chris you will have to get yourself a race chassis to do the engine justice :) )
diamondj
Road race school
Posts: 785
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Wharton, NJ USA

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by diamondj »

petermbooth wrote:Here's a shot of my bike is it currently sits.
Hey Peter - looking good. That's not a Tannermatic tank is it? Curious as to where you got the tank as it looks shorter than the usual Norton copies out there.

Jim
User avatar
Suzukidave
Moto GP
Posts: 3980
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:55 pm
Country: US
Suzuki 2-Strokes: GT750 x2 97 -1200 Bandit 86 GSXR1100
Location: Lancaster Pa.

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by Suzukidave »

Wow .. thats some great porting work :up: I suppose to get much more power you would have to think about water cooled barrels http://www.suzukidave.com/index.php?sfp ... ZThjM2JiOA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the older i get the faster i was
SpecialK
On the street
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:37 am
Country: USA
Suzuki 2-Strokes: RM100 RM125 RM250 CR250 T500
Location: Vermont

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by SpecialK »

Dave,
Great pic's of your 750! Thank you for sharing them with us. Both you and Zunny brought up power loss (heat) in your responses and we do have a few levers that we can pull to mitigate that. So when using petrol, there will clearly be a point when we reach a heat soak point where BHP will start rolling off (probably 2nd lap haha lol!). How much of a rolloff cannot be predicted yet every racing air-cooled motor gets to this point. While nobody likes to detune their motors, there is that possibility to adjust ignition, compression, etc to help curb heat increase but then why go to the extremes we did only to tame the motor? So while that is one (not so attractive) method to limit heat (at a cost), the more attractive method is to run Methanol which is allowed in our racing association. Methanol runs cool with no apparent power loss ... and you can even place your hand on the motor after a race and it's hardly warm! Methanol does have it's gotcha's though as it is a corrosive liquid which is very good at removing paint, degrading rubber & fiberglass and is consumed at a rate of nearly 2:1 of that of petrol. But it is this direction that would be our poor man's water cooling! To run this, we'd have to make sure our fuel tank was coated with a methanol friendly interior coating (so as not to turn our tank into Jello) and to be sure to flush out our motor with a petrol-based premix at the end of every event to prevent seal degradation. Also jetting is very critical when running Methanol. So this is an option but we first need to evaluate how this motor does on petrol. Seeing as we're not running for a World Championship, the stakes are not that high in our racing association (just bragging rights and some neck bling). So once we get some track time in along with some quantitative dyno data we'll see where we are. Thanks!
Ken
User avatar
Suzukidave
Moto GP
Posts: 3980
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:55 pm
Country: US
Suzuki 2-Strokes: GT750 x2 97 -1200 Bandit 86 GSXR1100
Location: Lancaster Pa.

Re: TR500 replica build

Post by Suzukidave »

SpecialK wrote:Dave,
Great pic's of your 750!
Thats a water cooled 500 .. not mine , but some nice picture's i grabbed off the net :)
the older i get the faster i was
Post Reply