running hot

smokin · Post by **smokin** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:16 pm

Hi first timer here you have a lot of good info and talent on this site, can you help me out with a few problems, I bought an early 72 waterbufflo the engine was rebuilt at 25000 miles and has been sitting for 15 years with 8000 on the rebuilt, I cleaned it up and got her started after 20 min the engine got hot and the radiator was cold I replaced the thermostat and still the same problem, the pump and gear seem to be working both are turning ,when I looked at the trans oil it had water in, could these problems be from the waterpump?

Post by **oldjapanesebikes** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:06 am

The short answer would likely be be 'yes' , but not necessarily. For clarity - when you say the 'water pump and gear were turning' could you be more specific ? How do you know this ? Was your tachometer working when the engine was running ?

tz375 · Post by **tz375** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:15 am

There are many possibilities.

I'd pull the radiator and flush it for a start. The last GT I stripped that had sat that long was completely clogged with old antifreeze.

After 15 years I suspect that the crank seals as well as waterpump selas may well have perished as well.

Post by **Suzsmokeyallan** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:50 am

Richard i used some lime-a-way to flush some Buffalo radiators after i thought they were clean from general flushing. Surpisingly it ate off a large amount of caked on residue from inside the tubes themselves.
Pour in about 200mls and add about a litre of water and block the ends while shaking and tilting it back and forth for about a minute. Then wash out and repeat this till you see no more residue coming out.

smokin · Post by **smokin** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:26 pm

Thanks for the tips, I haven't checked the radiator for blockage but it was drained when I got it,I pulled the side cover and pump cover off and the gear and pump seens to be working so are the gages, it was kept indoors and was in very good shape after all that time not to much rust, if I replace the pump do you think that would stop the water from getting into the trans or should I be looking for something besides the pump? engine runs fine except for those 2 problems, I don't want to tear the engine apart unless I have to it's still in great shape.Thank for the info

rngdng · Post by **rngdng** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:03 am

The waterpump could be leaking into the tranny, but it's not very likely unless you see coolant dripping under the bike. It's more likely that the seal between the cases (in the coolant bypass line) has failed. That's not a good thing because to repair it, the cases must be split.

Lane

Wayne Meuir · Post by **Wayne Meuir** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:01 am

What Lane said. When I bought my bike, I expected the water in the tranny was a water pump seal. Turned out to be the O-Ring between the cases. Ended up with a total rebuild of the motor. so I decided to just do the whole thing. Ended up with my Avatar bike about $3500 later.

Wayne

Post by **Suzsmokeyallan** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:20 am

Sad to say but in most cases its the joint between the cases where its leaking for water to get into the gearbox oil.
Earlier cases like your 72 did not carry the o-ring so this made the problem even worse for potential leaks in the joint area, and the joint face overlap was minimal too on those engines,which only compounding the problem.
Some radiator 'stop leak might' work but it will get into all the other cooling system parts too, something you do not want.
It seems that a splitting of the engine is inevitable..

tz375 · Post by **tz375** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:39 pm

Is there much water in the oil or does it look more like condensation from sitting around for years?

If there's a lot of water, there may be rusting of some gears so it really has to come apart anyway to be sure.

If there's very little water and it might be old, I'd back flush the radiator and perhaps use a solvent as Allan suggested. Then I'd run it again and see if more water gets into the oil. Get it good and warm to evaporate off any old condensate.

If the trans is still full of new water its motor out time.

smokin · Post by **smokin** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:20 pm

Before I started it I changed the oil, ran it for 20 min before it started to get hot, changed the thermostat and rode it up the street and it got hot again that's when I checked the pump and gear, when I pulled the left side cover off thats when the milky oil came out, looks like I got a big job ahead of me I was hoping to be riding this summer since it was well kept.
I pulled the water pump out tonight and it has the old type of impeller the one with the key and the pump that I have is the newer one ebay here I come, oh well I'll kept you posted when I begin the tear down, I will be reading a lot off this site so thanks for the help and kept on smokin.

tz375 · Post by **tz375** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:55 pm

If you can focus on just fixing the bottom end and avoid the temptation to make everything else perfect on the way, you can do it all in a couple of weeks and 50% of that will be waiting time.

I would order a complete gasket set and a set of crank oil seals and all teh other seals and O rings. People package them through a couple of web sites plus fleabay or course.

Strip as much off the motor as you reasonably can before destroying your back trying to lift it out of the frame. Drain as much of the fluids out as possible.

Remove the end covers and take off the starter clutch assembly and alternator rotor and stator. For details of pullers, check here"

http://pinkpossum.com/GT750/Crank%20pullers.htm

Without the left side cover, some oil will undoubtedly fall under the spell of gravity and it sure makes a mess, so get lots of rags ready for clean up. If you have any old large sheets of cardboard, now would be a good time to slip one under the bike and set them up as a path from teh bike to the work bench for all the drips.

Take lots of photographs because as much as you think you will remember, you will be amazed at how much you're unable to remember when it's time to go back together.

With any luck the barrels will lift straight off (unlikely but possible) and the strip will be straightforwards. Get the crank out and pack it and the set of crank oil seals in a sturdy box and ship to Bill Bune Enterprises in Anoka, MN to be rebuilt.

They will take about 7-10 days to get the crank stripped and rebuilt and that's your time to clean and wash and tap threads and chamfer holes and order new air filter and strip and clean the carbs, and clean up any electrical connections etc.

I figure 1 hour to 2 max to completely strip the motor. At the end of that time you will have lots of baking trays full of parts, sorted by where they came from. I prefer simple small metal baking trays with a few much larger (lasagne) sized trays for carbs and motor parts.

Clean up is a good week's part time work to get everything clean and all the faces flat and all the holes cleaned out and tapped clean and threads repaired where necessary.

if you have a large capacity hot tank that will make life simpler as would a large ultrasonic cleaner and bead blast cabinet, but none of those are essential. Do buy a box of blue Nitrile gloves and a biodegradable cleaner like Simple Green and a few brushes. Cheap paint brushes, old tooth brushes and one good degreasing brush will do the trick.

Assembly is simple but rewards attention to detail. If it goes well and there's nothing much else wrong you will be riding it before Easter. Even if you decided to strip it completely and powdercoat the frame ect, it should still be back before the end of April.

All of the above assumes you have the time and dare I say it the other resources to do it that fast. The bottom end will cost about $400 - 450 if you do all the dirty work in house.

Once you deviate and lose focus and start thinking NOS and CHROME and PAINT, all bets are off.

Keep posting and let's see some pictures of what you find.

Good luck and welcome to our world.

teazer

Buffalo-guy · Post by **Buffalo-guy** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:49 pm

If you haven't pulled the motor out yet, it may be advisable to try the cheap and easy approach first. It sounds like your radiator is blocked, so fixing that problem first, and trying a rad sealant with coolant fillup can't hurt. Suzuki stipulates adding sealant at any fillup, so they most likely knew the shortcomings of the engine case seal issue even back when the service manual was published. Generous Motors makes a very good sealant that is readily available, is in dry form in small cubes, and may very well solve most of your problems cheaply. One question. Is the oil pump cover still in place? The transmission vent is right there, and succeptable to water intusion if the cover is missing. Hope all goes well for you, because the old Buffalo is a great road bike, especially the early, torquey, ones. Cheers.
Fred

Coyote · Post by **Coyote** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:01 pm

I agree with Fred. Things tend to shrink when the bike sits for years. Get the rad working and use some sealer in the coolant. It just might heal itself when you get a few miles on it.
As pristene as this bike sounds, maybe, just maybe, the wires are reversed on the temp gage. That will indicate hot almost immediately.

smokin · Post by **smokin** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:12 pm

Thanks teazer for the info it will come in handy when I start the rebuild, I already pulled the pump out so it is a little to late to try the sealer looks like it will be a winter project, can you tell how to get in touch with Bill Bune, also what should I do rebuild the crank or change the seals the bike has 33000 miles and I don't know if the last owner rebuilt the crank or not. What would the cost be to do either one I want to keep the cost down but I also want to do it right.

tz375 · Post by **tz375** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:27 am

Bill Bune is at www.billbune.com and he's in MN.

They will completely strip clean and inspect the crank. 9 times out of 10, all that it will need is new seals.

I suggest that you get a set of seals either form your local dealer or Paul Miller (on ebay) or KnK cycles http://knkcycles.com/

Send the seals with the crank to Bill Bune and pack the crank securely so that it can't break loose in transit. make sure that you label it with your name and phone number and a week or so after you ship it, they'll call you asking for a credit card number to charge it to.

If there are any problems with a rod or bearings, they'll call to tell you.

If you don't plan on doing it until next winter, I'd get 2 new O rings and slip the water pump back in, Flush the cooling system again - maybe use the stuff Allan mentioned as well, and try it.

The flush needs to happen anyway and you can use the time to clean the carbs and ignition timing etc and eliminate a bunch of other potential problems.