Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

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yeadon_m
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Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by yeadon_m »

http://smokeriders.com/Technical/Suzuki ... mance.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Folks,
As I've managed to get hold of a spare set of ganged 550 carbs and already have a spare 380 shared carb top, I fancy having an experiment to see what 550 carbs fitted to a 380 feels like. I'll not be messing with the stock carbs on either my 380 or 550, just creating a set of "frankencarbs" for the sheer hell of it :-)

Anyone tried this? any tips, cautions and learnings?

I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed to find after I've played about that I go back to stock. I just like to tinker and learn.

Cheers!
Mike
ps: the suggested mod is about halfway down the Performance post in the link above. Interesting reading anyway.
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by JoostGT »

The performance page simply states that you can fit 550 carbs and be done with it, why do you believe you need to create a frankencarb? (serious question, not trying to sound smart!)

Things I can think of are; intake boots, are the larger 550 carbs even going to fit? If the inside of the intake track on the 380 is not enlarged the added surface area of the 550 carbs may go to waste. You could argument that the larger carbs will be more efficient, but that's such a small gain I don't think it's worth it..

How about mounting width? Maybe you should place the 550 carbs on the 380 "carb frame"?
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by yeadon_m »

Joost,
The jokey Franken-bit was, just as you say, I have to fit the separate 550 carbs onto the 380 top and shorten the carb-to-carb joining pipes a little to suit the closer spacing :-)
I agree its probably not going to add much, if anything, but I have plenty of time, spare carbs and top, and like playing around.
I will measure the inside diameters of the intake bores on the 550 and 380 cylinders. You may be right that this, or other, restrictions will prevent a meaningful change, unless the other work specified is also done (I don't plan to do any changes to the motor because I enjoy it as it is, stock, so accept I am limiting any upside).
A fun experiment anyway,
Cheers,
Mike
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markush
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by markush »

Hello!
It is possible to interchange parts of the bridged carburetors of GT550 and GT380.
You can fit the GT550-carburetor-bodys to the GT380-Bridge.
The only modifkation to fit the parts are the shorter tubes between the carburetors.
The intake flange diameter of my original GT380B-cylinder is about 29mm, therefore no changes are required here. I have got some rubber connectors, some years ago, bought as for GT380, but they have the correct inner diameter to fit the GT550 28mm carburettor. So I think, they are from GT550.
The original GT380-rubbers have the smaller inner diameter of the 24mm carburetor on the carburetor-side and the larger inner diameter of the cylinder-flange on the cylinder-side.

I assembled such a 28mm-carburetor-bridge for my GT380 last month, everything is ready for mounting, but the winter is comming and I will not ride then, so I have to wait until next year.
Because of the quite similar design of the GT250 and GT380-cylinders I do not use any of the jet-types of the GT550-setup, but all from the GT250A-28mm-carbs.

I will post, when I have tested it...
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by Coyote »

I am not a tuning expert bu any stretch of the imagination. However, I do know when it comes the carburation, bigger is almost never better. It's worse. My guess is if yo succeed at getting the 550 carbs on there, you will end up with a sloppy, blubbering motor that won't even get out of it's own way.
I suggest you point your enthusiasm at something more meaningful instead of trying to out think Suzuki. I mean if that was a better setup, the bike would have come from the factory that way.
I was born with nothing and still have most of it left.

.
1978 GS1000C
1976 GT550 ongoing money pit.
yeadon_m
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by yeadon_m »

Coyote,
You are probably right, but I am stubborn, patient, like to experiment and don't mind being wrong :-)
I'll let you know.
Marush, we can trade 'oh well' stories, if nothing else. Then I can sell on my carbs to a 'greater fool' (or someone smarter).
Cheers!
Mike
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by markush »

I'm not as pessimistic.. :mrgreen:
As has been noted several times, the channel design of GT250K-M and GT380 is almost identical. I drive GT250M with 28mm carburetor (with cylinder intake opened from 26 to 28mm), that works fine. Suzuki itself also has built-in 28mm carburetors on the '76 GT250-models, which are only slightly changed in the exhaust timing, not in intake timing, compared to previous models.
Therefore I have no hesitation, that after small corrections of the nozzles and settings the whole will work well on the GT380.
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by Vintageman »

markbush,

The gt550 jetting may not be too far off either. But, I like your reasoning for Gt250A.

Did you ever verify the GT250A intake timing was not changed over KLM 250? I think the bulletin said only exhaust, but they did add the extra ports also. We just checked a sample of one each (GT250L and GT380 and the 380 had a couple mm lower intake.) Wow, raising only the exhaust port that little amount, sure killed the bottom end of the late GT250, but it is also a rocket on the top end.

I bored Gt185 carbs to very 21.5mm versus 20 mm (really 19 ish). I bored out rubber boots and like you widened intake of jugs to match (did not have to go too far before it opened wide)

The GT185 runs much better with bigger bore. More torque and holds inclines better. Only had to up main jet (may have moved needle richer a notch richer too but forget now) This is a good mod with no trade offs.

So one option is the get a spare set (just in case) of GT380 carb bodies and bore up to 2mm more. I used an adjustable hand reamers to get there a little at a time. before you start gauge the pilot hole for it will get a burr plugging it and needs to be removed. If two pilot holes the one on an angle may need chamfer restored. Easy stuff

The Gt380 does feel like it needs a little more carb like the GT185 did to me and 26mm is what I was thinking.

I am very interested in how it goes for you with those gt550 and Gt250A jetting
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by tz375 »

I find myself between the two camps. I have absolutely no trouble trying something just because I can.

On the other hand (now I'm starting to sound like a politician :shock: ) the 380 is pretty soft and port timing suggests that it may not rev high enough to use that flow. An RZ350 makes around 60HP with two 26mm round slides. That tends to suggest that three 24's "ought" to be enough for a triple, but you just don't know until you try it.

I wanted to put a set of 32mm GT750J carbs on a 550 but MOTA seemed to suggest that unless it was 64mm bore and turning 5 figure revs, it would make very little difference - what does it know anyway :roll:

So I'm not on the fence. I'm in the bleachers watching and cheering these guys on.
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by markush »

Hello!
Vintageman wrote:markbush, The gt550 jetting may not be too far off either. But, I like your reasoning for Gt250A.
GT550, later version, Carburetor mark:346 21 (22)
Needle jet: Type 172, P-4
Needle 5D1
Main Jet: 102,5...105
Idle Jet: #30

GT250 A
Needle Jet: Type 172, O-0
Needle: 5CN3
Main Jet: 95....100
Idle Jet: #30
Did you ever verify the GT250A intake timing was not changed over KLM 250? I think the bulletin said only exhaust, but they did add the extra ports also. We just checked a sample of one each (GT250L and GT380 and the 380 had a couple mm lower intake.) Wow, raising only the exhaust port that little amount, sure killed the bottom end of the late GT250, but it is also a rocket on the top end.
I haven't GT250A cylinders here now to check it again. My knowledge is that the transfer ports and the additional ports are at the same height like in the older versions. I'd posted my measures of GT250KLM and GT380 cylinders here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9480&p=137695#p137695
So one option is the get a spare set (just in case) of GT380 carb bodies and bore up to 2mm more. I used an adjustable hand reamers to get there a little at a time. before you start gauge the pilot hole for it will get a burr plugging it and needs to be removed. If two pilot holes the one on an angle may need chamfer restored. Easy stuff
If I don't want to go to 28mm, but only 26mm, I'd rather try e.g. GT250-X7-carburetor before I possibly ruin GT380 carburetors with a hand reamer.
I am very interested in how it goes for you with those gt550 and Gt250A jetting
you can believe: me too... :D
tz375 wrote: On the other hand (now I'm starting to sound like a politician :shock: ) the 380 is pretty soft and port timing suggests that it may not rev high enough to use that flow.
My 380 is as soft no more, because of using X7-pistons, mentioned in another post. It revs up to 9000 without problems. And it must not be the last modification. I'll try the 28mm carburetors on GT380. If that does not unexpectedly goes wrong, I plan to increase the outlet height as in the GT250A (29mm from the top). As I already have done at the GT250KLM cylinders, which I run with the 28mm carburetors.

bye
Markus

btw: some of you seem to have problems with writing my nickname? :wink:
Perhaps the spelling in english causes "mental associations"? :?:
It is only my real name Markus + the first Letter h of my familyname
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by Vintageman »

markush

My stock (well if you don't count Jemcos and Iridiums) 74 pulls to 9000 RPM (over revs passed that). It is one of the best running (carb tuned wise ) engines I have. Never being happy I was wanting a little more midrange torque and think a 10% larger carb may do it as it did for me before and easy jet change of main only I think. I would have to find a spare set of carb bodies just incase I don't like the out come as you noted.

I think if you raise the exhaust port you will have a little top end rocket, but loose bottom end (make nice back road must drive fast bike ). Here 28mm sound better than 26mm.
Also I think in your case since you have so much intake timing change due to X7 pistons you could raise the jugs say 2mm and spread out the port timing. I suck at porting and don't have the patients or best tools. I think I would have better luck fabricating a 2mm base plate using a gasket as a template and jig saw and files. Next , I would have jugs milled same amount so I would not have to have head dome reshaped. Most machine shops can do that milling of jugs low risk and easy. So need spare jugs too just incase too.

fun stuff.
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yeadon_m
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by yeadon_m »

Early days on this. Having received a very tatty set of 550 carbs just after Christmas, I've managed to clean and swap the larger VM28 carbs from the 550 onto the stock 380 carb top. I've kept the jetting the same as they came (30 pilots, 102.5 mains) and verified all passageways.

They fit perfectly, not surprisingly as I've learned that the external dimensions are identical to the 380s VM24s. Only the spacing is wider on the 550 as the cylinders are further apart, and of course at wide open, the bore area is quite a bit bigger (36% if my maths is right).

I just popped them onto the 380, half expecting it not to run at all. No leaks on priming, then kicked it over. Ye of little faith, it idles identically to the stock VM24 carbs as far as I could tell, and took throttle blips in the same way, falling back to a nice steady 1100rpm idle just as it does with its stock carbs.

Whether it will be the same on the road (ie make no difference), be 'better' or 'worse' I have no idea. I can theorise all of these outcomes. It'll be fun to find out.

My maths-based jetting suggests I might need even bigger jets (say 110s) to match the fuel/air mixture at WOT, but my maths are based on so many assumptions its meaningless. So I'll be fitting new plugs, checking carefully and using my IR thermometer to minimise the risk that a bit of fun ends up being an expensive screw up!

If anyone has done a carb swap in the past and especially if its not ended well, do chime in now :-))
Cheers,
Mike
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by oldjapanesebikes »

Mike - a friend of mine here in Calgary just changed back to stock 380 carbs from the 550 carbs he was playing with - he said it all worked fine at WOT - didn't work so well at any other throttle setting. He is running spannies and stock airbox. With the stock 380 carbs set slightly richer for the spannies, he expects he will be happier.

I can send you his email if you want to chat with him directly - he doesn't do boards. 8)
Ian

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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by yeadon_m »

Ian, that's interesting, and yes please to your offer!
I'm checking the weather to see if there's a day soon where it's not chucking with rain and also windy to get a first road impression. Could be a while :-)
Cheers, Mike
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Re: Anyone tried putting 550 carbs on a 380?

Post by yeadon_m »

I'm pleased to report back on the 1st use on the road and its VERY good. Just got in, it was getting dark.
-easy 1st kick start as is usual now with VM28 carb 550 bodies / 380 top hybrid carbs, running only very briefly on LH before going cold and stinking of fuel in LH pipe (its getting TOO much fuel on choke in LH carb is my hunch! How, I’ve no idea for now). Off choke, usual 1100rpm smooth idle on 3 pots, so headed out, lights ablaze against the gloom. Roads mostly dry once out of the local lanes. Light winds, ~10C air temp.
-took it for a 22mile test ride. Immediate impressions are superb off-idle smoothness (tends to slightly rich but so little its not even worth dialing out), bags of power which seat of pants dyno suggests might be quite a bit more than on stock carbs, a sense that its no longer so picky about which gear its in, it pulls well from lower RPM and pulls higher gears uphill and into wind which it didn’t before, and finally, no hint at all of roll-off harshness or cruising on a cracked throttle jerkiness. A total pleasure to ride, perhaps better than ever in my 37 years of ownership. While they may be there for the taking, the main advantages may not be in top speed or willingness to rev (cannot really use the former as chassis gets fidgety about 85-90mph anyway, and I don’t like to flog my motors to the redline) but more in the creamy smoothness and a bit more urge all round. It will rev easily and freely to the redline in any gear (not yet tested 6th :-)) and no suggestion of wrong fueling off-idle, mid- or WOT.
-exhaust manifold temps were similar to before (or cooler, but was a cooler day than I usually ride) at around 100C LH and C, 95C on RH. Unless I find something worrying, I will keep these carbs in place for now. They have 550 jets inside (102.5 mains, 30 pilots, pilot screw 1.5 turns out).

So if anyone fancies a reversible 'hop up' for the 380, try this. While I'm over the moon, and probably over-reading the gains, I honestly think it might have added 10% to power, conservatively, and even that is noticeable. I have done nothing to airbox/air filters, reasoning that cannot be restrictive on this smaller engine, since its pretty much identical to the set up on the GT550B.

I had considered getting a spare head so I could try a 1mm skim but honestly, the change to 550 carbs is enough and I want to keep it as stock as possible. Also, it might embarrass its bigger brother, the 550B! no question my 750 is massively more powerful, even taking account of the greater weight, but with a stronger 380, my 550 will have its work cut out :-)) Roll on spring so I can run that contest of fun, which is all this is.

Cheers,
Mike
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