E10 fuel

[johnakay]

I understand that you guys in the US have had this for a number of years.
do you have problems with your engine crank seals etc inc petrol tap diaphragm.
some guys over here claim that it will ruin crank seals etc therefore this will render the 500 and others off the road?
yes I know there are additives to get round this but this only affect E5 as far as I know.
E10 is new to us and we're getting conflicted ideas.

[Alan H]

E10 is twice as bad as E5, having twice as much crap in it. Use 97 octane as it's got less veggie stuff in it.

[johnakay]

7 lookers and only one reply.
and it from a fellow brit.
this just reminded me why I left this forum.
just a bunch of lookers.

[jabcb]

I was one of the lookers.

I didn’t respond because I don’t have an answer. I use ethanol free gas in the two strokes.

[Alan H]

The beauty of any forum is that people can contribute or not as they wish. Give it time.

Similar sort of thing - people 'join' the forum and are approved, I send them an email as a welcome but they never come back. Is that the modern way?

[gammakeith]

Well, I don't come here everyday so won't always reply quickly. Remember the fuss over unleaded that turned out to be overblown? Our friends in the US have had this fuel for years with few problems. E10 does not affect engine seals but will likely make your fuel lines brittle and possibly cause problems with the fuel tap sealing if you have an old one. If you have a fuel tank liner then that will likely lift (I had two break up on me with E5). If you have a fibreglass tank you have big problems unless carefully sealed. Modern nitrile fuel lines are a good precautionary change. Biggest problems I have had are due to leaving old fuel in the bike as it absorbs water and this eventually drops out as a layer at the bottom of the fuel bowls which clogs jets. I have to strip the carbs off the NC30 again as its not ridden regularly (not a fun job). You just need to take a few precautions. Turn the fuel off and run the bike dry after a run. Ride the bike regularly and you will be fine. If not, drain the fuel out at the end of summer and shove it in the car/lawnmower etc.

Am I worried? No, I've just run a half tank of E10 through the T20.

Keith

[daxman]

Well, I don't come here everyday so won't always reply quickly. Remember the fuss over unleaded that turned out to be overblown? Our friends in the US have had this fuel for years with few problems. E10 does not affect engine seals but will likely make your fuel lines brittle and possibly cause problems with the fuel tap sealing if you have an old one. If you have a fuel tank liner then that will likely lift (I had two break up on me with E5). If you have a fibreglass tank you have big problems unless carefully sealed. Modern nitrile fuel lines are a good precautionary change. Biggest problems I have had are due to leaving old fuel in the bike as it absorbs water and this eventually drops out as a layer at the bottom of the fuel bowls which clogs jets. I have to strip the carbs off the NC30 again as its not ridden regularly (not a fun job). You just need to take a few precautions. Turn the fuel off and run the bike dry after a run. Ride the bike regularly and you will be fine. If not, drain the fuel out at the end of summer and shove it in the car/lawnmower etc.

Am I worried? No, I've just run a half tank of E10 through the T20.

Keith

Thanks Keith for the informative, sensible reply. Too often folk get taken in by the hyperbole. Just to add unless you brim your tank there'll always be water in there from condensation. With 'E' fuel some of this will be absorbed by the Ethanol but in 'pure' fuel it sinks straight to the bottom. What's worse? Provided you keep pushing fuel through the system I don't envisage any issues.

[jabcb]

For those on this side of the pond, this website lists the ethanol-free gas stations in the US & Canada:
https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp

[ConnerVT]

An issue with E5/E10 is that it has a very short shelf life (tank life?) than ethanol free gasoline. Not so much an issue for most people's automobiles, as the tank runs low and gets refilled regularly. Our old Suzi's usually are not a daily driver, so gas will sit in the tank for longer.

Those of us who live in cold, snowy climates are familiar with "dry gas". This is mostly the same ethanol that is now added to gasoline. Its purpose? To absorb water. Good for binding water actually in the gas. Not so good when grabbing water vapor from humid air. Modern automobiles now use a closed fuel system - valves to let pressure out, but not so much let outside air in (just leave your gas cap off, and see how long it takes for the Check Engine light to come on). Our tanks are always vented to the outside air.

I am fortunate, as there is a popular local store chain that has ethanol free premium unleaded (US 91 octane), and the gas station closest to my house has 100+ octane leaded racing fuel, which I'll occasionally use on days that I work the bike hard.

It is rare that I've run any ethanol gasoline in the T500, only when far from home, and need fuel to make it back.

[daxman]

An issue with E5/E10 is that it has a very short shelf life (tank life?) than ethanol free gasoline. Not so much an issue for most people's automobiles, as the tank runs low and gets refilled regularly. Our old Suzi's usually are not a daily driver, so gas will sit in the tank for longer.

Those of us who live in cold, snowy climates are familiar with "dry gas". This is mostly the same ethanol that is now added to gasoline. Its purpose? To absorb water. Good for binding water actually in the gas. Not so good when grabbing water vapor from humid air. Modern automobiles now use a closed fuel system - valves to let pressure out, but not so much let outside air in (just leave your gas cap off, and see how long it takes for the Check Engine light to come on). Our tanks are always vented to the outside air.

Interesting but what's your point? Once the ethanol is 'saturated' with water then any more eg via condenstation sinks to the bottom of the tank right? - how is that different to normal no E fuel? Is the water-saturated-ethanol somehow harmful in its own right?

[karl pa]

I have been running E10 gas in my bikes for years . Not had any issues with engine or carbs, but about every year I need to replace a fuel line or 2. For some reason the fuel lines split, even if the system is drained.
I haven't had any issues with tanks either, even the 3 tanks that have liner in them.

[gammakeith]

An issue with E5/E10 is that it has a very short shelf life (tank life?) than ethanol free gasoline. Not so much an issue for most people's automobiles, as the tank runs low and gets refilled regularly. Our old Suzi's usually are not a daily driver, so gas will sit in the tank for longer.

Those of us who live in cold, snowy climates are familiar with "dry gas". This is mostly the same ethanol that is now added to gasoline. Its purpose? To absorb water. Good for binding water actually in the gas. Not so good when grabbing water vapor from humid air. Modern automobiles now use a closed fuel system - valves to let pressure out, but not so much let outside air in (just leave your gas cap off, and see how long it takes for the Check Engine light to come on). Our tanks are always vented to the outside air.

Interesting but what's your point? Once the ethanol is 'saturated' with water then any more eg via condenstation sinks to the bottom of the tank right? - how is that different to normal no E fuel? Is the water-saturated-ethanol somehow harmful in its own right?

I think the key point here is sealed vs unsealed systems. A sealed tank cannot absorb water from the environment regardless of the fuel. An open vented tank can. Unlike conventional petrol, E5/E10 fuel actively absorbs water from the environment until it is saturated and then the process stops. This is a partition process driven by thermodynamics which does not happen in normal fuel as the solubility of water in normal petrol is essentially zero. At this point, the fuel is a bit of a ticking bomb. If the bike is used regularly that it is not a problem. However, that water saturated fuel in the float bowl in particular will start to evaporate and the water will then drop out of solution and head straight to the bottom. The same thing will happen to a slower extent in the vented petrol tank. Yes, you can get water in conventional petrol but its usually a contamination from the pumps. E5/E10 fuel will contaminate itself over time.

Keith

[daxman]

Yes, you can get water in conventional petrol but its usually a contamination from the pumps. E5/E10 fuel will contaminate itself over time

Keith

..and often through condensation over winter in bikes with half full tanks.. My point being its been happening for years and I don't really see how E fuel makes it any worse... other than if teh ethanol attacks seals which I believe is overstated.

[Willsy69]

I don’t think it’s just seals. The water can build up in the carb bowls and corrode the bowls clogging up the passages and jets.
Here in the uk BP Ultimate has virtually no ethanol unless you live in certain parts of the country (like me in the north east of England -typical)
Apparently fuel consumption goes up using E10, so it’s a bit of a fudge as far as I can see…less emissions from the fuel, but you use more of it, not to mention the environmental damage caused by more land required to grow the crops and the fertilisers and pesticides needed to grow them (rant over)

[karl pa]

I don’t think it’s just seals. The water can build up in the carb bowls and corrode the bowls clogging up the passages and jets.

I don't think I would worry to much, some of my street bikes sit for quite awhile with fuel in the carbs without any corrosion in carbs.
My 76 Yamaha DT175 has 2 year old E10 fuel in it, I removed the carb a few weeks ago and the carb was totally clean with no sign of any issues. The 2 year old fuel is loosing its flash point though.
Like I said, I have been running E10 fuel in my bikes for 12 or 13 years now with no issues from the fuel other than some types of fuel lines splitting, Some of my bikes have gone 20,000 miles or more on it.
When they went to E10 fuel, everyone was concerned about the damage it would cause, but for the most part it didn't happen.
I am not a fan of E10 fuel, but when I go for a ride and need to stop 2 or 3 times for fuel, I don't have much choice. I pretty much don't worry about it anymore.