Oil Pump: Driven if towed in Neutral?

[tz375]

The pump has a face cam that rotates (the main internal part) and in some positions, it is pushing against the actuating arm and in other positions it's not. That's how it pumps and it's all hunky dory when the motor is turning.

When the motor is not running, sometimes it stops with the cam in the UP position and sometimes in the LOW position. If it's UP teh arm won't fully return and trying to push it back "closed" doesn't do anything for oil consumption.

If the arm is never going back to the Neutral/closed/off position and hangs up all the time, even with a running motor, that's a whole different matter and needs to be investigated.
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[pearljam724]

I would imagine that's only a problem with the cable operated pumps ? Can't imagine that problem would exist with the pumps with a rod attached. Being the slides force the arm back.

[Ebayru]

The pump has a face cam that rotates (the main internal part) and in some positions, it is pushing against the actuating arm and in other positions it's not. That's how it pumps and it's all hunky dory when the motor is turning.

When the motor is not running, sometimes it stops with the cam in the UP position and sometimes in the LOW position. If it's UP teh arm won't fully return and trying to push it back "closed" doesn't do anything for oil consumption.

If the arm is never going back to the Neutral/closed/off position and hangs up all the time, even with a running motor, that's a whole different matter and needs to be investigated.
.

Thanks for the explanation. I have a better understanding of the pump operation now.

But, what about the circumstance with the engine OFF and when opening and closing the throttle, the lever returns completely 50% of the time and 50% of the time it doesn't, but with just a little more pressure, it closes all the way? That doesn't seem like a cam position issue since it does close all the way on its own half the time. Wouldn't that be the spring pressure being slightly deficient? I added a low pressure open coil spring on the cable which allows closure in a consistent pattern. It seemed to need just a little more return pressure for consistent operation.

[tz375]

Let's break that down. With the engine OFF, 50% of the time it closes and 50% it hangs up. That's because 50% of the time, the cam is in the raised position and other times it isn't. It's dependent on what position the oil pump rotor is in at the moment that the engine stops. To see that effect, kick the motor over a couple of times with the throttle open and then close the throttle. If it hangs up and won't close completely, leave the throttle alone and kick it over a few more times and you will see the pump arm close.

Forcing it back closed means that the lever arm, which has a an eccentric ground into it, then forces the pump rotor to push down and that tends to cause wear on the eccentric.

[Ebayru]

I did that and found that it was not consistent in a position where it did close on its own. To restate my experience: I could get it to close on its own, but once in the closed position, if I would open and close the throttle, it would sometimes close and sometimes not. The addition of a gentle helper spring created a consistent behavior pattern. Would that also not be the reason Suzuki made that suggestion in one of their service bulletins?

I think you're dead on in what you have described, but i think there are some situations where a given machine's spring is fatigued or there just is a little more resistance in the mechanism which would require balancing with the proper spring return forces.

How come you can post pictures and I can't? I'm still getting the forum quota limit has been reached message.

[tz375]

You cannot attach pictures because there is not enough server space.

What you have to do is to host the pictures somewhere on the web and link to them.

It looks like '' If you do not have your own web site,, use Photobucket or something similar and link to that.

[Ebayru]

Don't tell me I have to learn something new!

[bpeck27]

Thanks to tz375 for posting the oil pump pictures and explanation of how the pump works. I had that issue on my 550 with the lever not returning to the idle position after I adjusted the pump. I thought I had picked up a piece of crap behind the lever, so I took off the lever and spring, cleaned and greased them and re-installed. I took it for a ride and it smoked excessively. I thought I might have put the lever back on 180 degrees off. So I took the lever back off and, using the pictures on pink possum as a guide, got it back on in the proper position.

Pearljam suggested that the stock pump setting supplies more oil than is needed considering the quality of modern oils, so I set the pump with the marks aligned with the BOTTOM of the alignment mark on the piston at the top of the hole. Took it for a quick ride to burn off the accumulated oil. Didn't take long for the smoking to subside, and when I got home it had a nice light haze of blue at idle.

Now I'd like to get a sense of how low is too low on the pump setting. Any informed insight will be appreciated.

[Alan H]

Personally, I would split the chain, then you are only driving the rear wheel and NONE of the gearbox.
All it should do with the chain on, would be churn the oil from the gears to the output shaft, but why do it at all.
My 2 pence worth anyway.

I would try to lock the steering to the towing vehicle somehow as if you are towing and the front end starts to shimmy, you will be in poop - unless your wife is going to sit on it and steer the bike while you tow the outfit?
Usually a bike being towed by a car would have the front wheel lifted, but you can't do that with an outfit as the sidecar wheel is forward of the rear bike wheel and the outfit would lean to the left with the front wheel lifted. Trailer or flatback would be best really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2TD5M_O9-o" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; sort of thing, but I don't really like it.

[rngdng]

If you are in neutral, the engine will not turn over, therefore, the oil pump will not move. The transmission is in a sump of oi, so it's fine. Towing is not a problem.



Lane

[ConnerVT]

That question was answered last summer (May 2014).

bpeck brought the thread back to life, to ask "How low is too low a pump setting."

The short answer to this is to adjust it just low enough to damage your engine, then give it just a little more.

Seriously, your question is one that engineers ask daily, about many things. Many are fortunate enough to have budgets that allow them to try what I wrote above, then tear it down and analyze the result. I doubt any of us here have the ability or resources to do this.

Suzuki came up with their adjustment based on 1970's oils, and likely gave themselves a bit of cushion on the side of caution. Can the adjustment be turned down, given modern oils (as well as modern, ethanol gas)? Probably. How much? As much as you are comfortable to do on your motorcycle.

[Alan H]

If you are in neutral, the engine will not turn over, therefore, the oil pump will not move. The transmission is in a sump of oi, so it's fine. Towing is not a problem.
Lane

Tell you what.
You choose.
Advice is great, you can use it or bin it.
Me? I listen and take the one who knows what he's on about.
Your problem?
Working out who knows what he's on about.

Personally, I never used oi , always oil .
So o o o o..........

The question is 'why use a transmission or any other mechanical device when it doesn't need to turn'.
Take the chain off FFS, then nothing moves other than the wheels or better still, use a trailer of flatbed and nothing moves.
If you have doubts about anyone's advice, forget what you have read above and just lob it on something that allows no movement of anything and when you get it home, check all oils etc. THEN run it on it's own wheels around home until you trust it to get you around safely.
You might save $$ getting it home, but if you fork it up on the way, how much will it cost to repair it?
Have you worked out how to row a vehicle with a strange wheel configuration and the towpoint to the left of centre?
Well then. Best of luck my friend.

[Coyote]

I would like to see a picture of that rig. I'd love a side car, but every time I search all I find are things way to modern and swoopy and aimed at big twins. AND, they cost a lot!

[Ebayru]

I realized that I never followed up on my on the ground towing set up for my GT550 sidecar rig. It exceeded all expectations. I told it for over 1500 miles with no problems at all. There was no tire scrubbing and I could barely tell I was towing anything. I did remove the chain but I now use a short section of chain that I leave attached around the countershaft sprocket and secured to the frame so I don't have to keep opening the case to reattach the chain.