I'd trade the DR for the Kat… should leave some $ to buy the gardening plants and materials… you'll have to do (part) of the work yourself… see it as a fitness thingy.
"Honey I decided to buy back my Kat… I'll do the gardening myself, it'll do me lots of good" should net you some good points.
Good original Kats are highly sought after here,but are more around the 3-4 grand mark. The market in England is much higher. They are a 4stroke I'd consider… except I've set myself a 500cc limit. Deffo a classic and historically important bike. Hans Muth who designed it was one of my teachers at design school. It is really a landmark, there is a before and after Katana in bike design terms. I wouldn't hesitate if I were you, plus the aligning of stars would also trip me out: it's big HINT.
The reason that factories don't "reverse flow" is because heat rises and the natural het path is upwards through the block to the head and up the top hose to the radiator. As it cools, the cooler denser water drops through the radiator to the bottom and so on.
A water pump can push water through teh system much more effectively that a simple convections design, but you are still pushing against the natural heat path.
That means potentially a bigger pump and different passageways. etc.
Heat rising, as per a motorcycle or auto engine, hasn't been reliant on convection rising boiling water since the first water pump was installed on an internal combustion engine, so get off that kick right now. That premise of water heated by the engine, and migrated by boiling, upwards out of the engine, then into the top of the radiator, down, cooled, and back as cool liquid into the bottom of the engine, is called THE THERMO-SIPHON METHOD. For the most part, it works, as long as the heat loads don't get out of control of the heat rise and the ability of the engine to reject the hot, boiling cooling liquid out and into the radiator. Plainly said, if the liquid doesn't travel out of the engine and through the rest of the cooling system, with enough velocity/volume and pressure volume, get ready for the engine to become the world's best atomic melt down water heater lump.
With fluid directed to run a designated path, heat flow can be aimed in opposition to what physics dictates. In essence, cool liquid can, and does, in the reverse cooling engines, run against the physics of heat rising. Top to bottom of the cooling paths within the engine, not conventionally bottom to top.
And, yes, Shannon, as we all know you are just trying to do your usual, expected trouble making at me, again, it won't work. There are no large engines, save the GT750/TR750 Suzuki, the ones you mentioned, that use case to cylinder liquid heat control. However, you omitted all the smaller, and single cylinder engines that DO, how convenient for you and your attempts to flame me.
I just rebuilt a Polini 50 cc single two stroke engine that uses a water pump at the rear of the clutch cover, hosed to the front of the cases under the base gasket surface, upwards (to the cylinder, through the aluminum base gasket), and to the head, then out the water outlet on the head, conventional water flow design. This isn't the only engine that uses coolant passed through the cases to the cylinder. However, it is a very good candidate for reverse cooling, from two factors, the pumped water flow is easily redirected from bottom to top, to the reversed top to bottom, and, that coolant will help promote better efficiency in the transfer/intake flow from equalizing heat between cases, cylinder, head.
Mixture flow efficiency in two stroke crank cases, as in inlet, and especially transfer ports, is very dependent on the stability of the case temperatures the engine operates at. The more closely you can meter and hold case temperature variants, the better control over atomization, fuel/oil suspension, velocity and volume velocity is attained, and jetting control is enhanced.
All this isn't just for racing engines, it is vital to any engine/s efficiency and performance, even a Polini 50 cc dirt bike engine.
Shannon, PLEASE, when you get the notion to try to make me look like someone that doesn't know what he is speaking of, as your usual modus operandii constantly attempts, DO THE HOMEWORK FIRST. So far, all you have done is completely failed at getting others to think I am un-intelligent about that which I speak/post.
And, now a question or two for Shannon only, please. 1st, Which is a hotter "fire", fuel alone, or fuel/oil mix? I already know the correct answer, I want to see if Shannon knows this. 2nd, what happens to octane of fuels when oil in mixed with them? I know the answer to this as well.
Please, all, let Shannon answer these questions, and please, Shannon, give physical reasons (based on the physics of liquids mixed together) for your answers. Tell us what you POSITIVELY know about all this, please.
"Heat rising, as per a motorcycle or auto engine, hasn't been reliant on convection rising boiling water since the first water pump was installed on an internal combustion engine. That premise of water heated by the engine, and migrated by HEATING, upwards out of the engine, then into the top of the radiator, down, cooled, and back as cool liquid into the bottom of the engine, is called THE THERMO-SIPHON METHOD.
With fluid directed to run a designated path, heat flow can be aimed in opposition to what physics dictates. In essence, cool liquid can, and does, in the reverse cooling engines, run against the physics of heat rising. Top to bottom of the cooling paths within the engine, not conventionally bottom to top."
Yes. I know that, but thanks for explaining it more clearly than I did.
oh tuner.. u obviously have some issues that you might need to see specialist about.. Yup.. i see that passive aggresive streak that a few have emailed me about, so i will try not make the situation any worse and hopefully we wont see any tantrums from you this time.
you see, I think you totally miss the point.. you put your 10 cents into a post and brag about your bikes, who you kiss arse with, how much R&D you have been involved in but sadly most of it seems to be here say and again as soon as you are challenged in any way that may compromise your self righteous attitude, the whole topic goes into epic meltdown, As ive noticed on here, the kawa 2 stroke forum and a few other forums that someone kindly pointed me to.. SO, lets get back to the basics of this thread before u spit the dummy.again..
The question was asked about temperatures, whether it was combustion temperature or water temperature was not totally clear but you decided to put your 10 cents in and blabbed about getting cooler temperatures by reverse cooling with no obvious evidence to your comment and just enough to leave people scratching their head... You see tuner, if you are going to make claims and post crap without at least giving some sort of logical explanation as to why, Then why do you even bother replying? Other than to float your ego and leave people in some sort of confused amazement about your self funded wealth of knowledge???
My original gave specific info and the many reasons as to why your
reply was flawed. Temperature differential, volume flow ,pressure , calorific characteristics of water and proof of its application on performance engines. well, factory limited production racing cycles.
Yes, Thats right.. TZ500's TZ750's , RG500's RS500's pump through the casing . Kr750's NSR500V RGV500 all cool from base to head. Actually the only engine that i could find that does cool from the head is the YZR500 which actually uses the effect to cool the forward facing horizontal cylinder due to their location directly under the radiator.. what effect this does having the pump located would be more related to keeping the engine narrow and compact and is really off the topic since we are talking about heat transfer through water via direction.again you are making claims that you cant really back up, so why say it??
Now unlike yourself Tuner, Im happy to receive criticism about my evidence as criticism promotes healthy debate and rational thinking between healthy minds but if you find it necessary to change the topic just to prove to your ego and to me that you that you are some sort genius then the only person you are going to impress is yourself!!
then again, If you would like to start a new thread on fuel, lowering octane levels by adding oils, flash points, critical points, the specific heat and latent value of fuels in cooling and combustion, then fire away sunshine.
It could be a good topic for all of us to learn something. maybe even you!!LoL
For some reason I stopped getting emails that you all replied, but thanks.
Teaser you mentioned the CHT gauge as being slow to respond, is that because the exhaust gases exit away from the spark plug, unlike a 4stroke which typically has the exhaust valve right next to the spark plug? Reason I ask is that the VW guys say that a CHT gauge responds faster if the sender is the ring type that goes under the plug.
I'm thinking that EGT would be more suited for tuning since it changes so much you've have to watch it all the time. My reason for considering the CHT is if I'm on a long straight section of empty freeway on a hot day and I'm 200 miles deep I'd like to cruise at the fastest speed that won't hurt the engine. Basically something I can glance at during abnormal conditions to see how the abnormal conditions are affecting the engine.
I'm also glad you mentioned the wideband O2 sensor, Teaser. I will have one of those for tuning VW engines in the far future and had wondered if it would work on a 2 stroke. I dismissed it thinking that the burning oil would contaminate the sensor, but I guess not since you mentioned it. Do you need a special sensor for 2 strokes?
O2 Sensors are great tools for setting up your mixture strength but realistically are best as a one time deal rather than to try to maintain a magic number.
cars, and some bikes use closed loop Lambda sensors in a low throttle opening, steady state cruise mode where the EFI can be adjusted to get good fuel consumption. They are not so useful in transient modes which is where bikes are most of the time.
Personally i would rather use a 4 gas analyzer on the dyno to lower the levels of CO and unburned hydrocarbons, and then tweak the carburation in real world situations - on the road.
But a Lambda sensor is great as long as you know what you are looking for. For example, a common misconception is that a stoichiometric ratio of around 14.7:1 is best because it is a chemically perfect balance. In fact you can run leaner than that for optimum efficiency and must run richer than that for peak power. So a Lambda of 1 is not the target.
I use a CHT gauge when I have a bike that I just rebuilt and the pipes appear to be running at very different temperatures. My system uses a washer with lead attached type design and it's not a bad tool to confirm whether or not a pot is really hot or cold vis a vis the other(s).
My comment about its responsiveness was because it is measuring not just the plug temperature but also the whole head which acts like a heat sink and in a time of detonation may not show the problem fast enough to act.
So as a general comparative set up tool it is excellent, but I don't think I'd bother with one on a street bike once it is set up and running OK.
But that's just my opinion. Others may have a different view of the situation.
Just to muddy the revers flow waters a little, my old TZ (with abysmal cooling design) has the cool(er) water entering at the rear of the head and leaving from the top of the head at the front.
In the meantime it supposedly wanders through the whole cylinder block and head to try to extract heat.
That isn't exactly reverse flow though in the way that Tuner meant it.
On my engine dyno I have I run a (heated)Bosch Lamda sensor on it for the 2 stroke motors...I mount the sensor 1 1/2 inches before the center section(belly) of the pipe...I've tested 60cc fan cooled motors up to 125cc Rotax Max motors.. The Lamda sensor I have is tied into the data acquition system I have...The person who sold me the system the mv output told me a target to shoot for good power is .820 to .865mv...I've also watched a OBDII scan tool hooked to my truck watching the down stream O2 sensors and they always seem to run .620 to .650mv for fuel ecomony...I have 150+ hrs on my Bocsh Lamda sensor on dyno testing and to me the big thing that has helped extend the life of the sensor is I turn on heat to the sensor 45min before I start testing and when I'm done I leave the heat on for 1 hr + to help burn off any oil reside that may still be on the sensor.....just my thoughts
Long as we're headed out of cooling and into O2's.......the single best mod done to the FJR of mine, and many, many others, is a Dynojet PCIII which eliminates the O2, drops mileage slightly, improves throttle response immensely, eliminates terrible surging, and up's power a hair to boot. While fine on heavier, lower power to weight vehicles, FI tuned for mileage and emissions blows chunks when put on lighter, high power ones.
